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Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

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Re: Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

#91

Post by DougN7 »

gryn wrote: post #56
DougN7 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m hanging onto this post for the next time I see people on their high horse about integrity among engineers. The fact is, some people have it and some don’t, regardless of job. This makes me sad. Economically it makes sense, but it’s a sign of the sickness in our modern society. Everyone looking out for themselves first without much thought to the community around them. I say this having been burned by employees li…

> Everyone looking out for themselves yes, including/especially employers. maybe (or not) these employee started doing this after been burned by their employers before. the very same that talk about the community, greater good, and being in it together but suddenly change speech when they're on the benefiting side. I've been on both side of the equation so I understand. I also have acquaintances that were too, they u…

Totally agree with almost everything you say. But there are lines both sides should not cross. For employers it’s exploitation (don’t expect unpaid work) and for employees it’s theft (don’t take pay for no work). If we can’t agree on that then we’re headed for a break down in society.

Re: Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

#92

Post by DougN7 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #90
DougN7 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m hanging onto this post for the next time I see people on their high horse about integrity among engineers. The fact is, some people have it and some don’t, regardless of job. This makes me sad. Economically it makes sense, but it’s a sign of the sickness in our modern society. Everyone looking out for themselves first without much thought to the community around them. I say this having been burned by employees li…

We got here with hyper aggressive shareholder value optimization and management (broadly speaking) turning practitioners into interchangeable, replaceable cogs. Game’s the same, just got more fierce. Talk about community doesn’t pay inflated rent, food, or healthcare costs.

Theft will eventually result in even less pay over time. Both sides need to respect each other. In my case a dev was paid very well and given tons of freedom, and screwed me. I’m not some huge company making bank here.

Re: Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

#93

Post by toomuchtodo »

DougN7 wrote: post #92
toomuchtodo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We got here with hyper aggressive shareholder value optimization and management (broadly speaking) turning practitioners into interchangeable, replaceable cogs. Game’s the same, just got more fierce. Talk about community doesn’t pay inflated rent, food, or healthcare costs.

Theft will eventually result in even less pay over time. Both sides need to respect each other. In my case a dev was paid very well and given tons of freedom, and screwed me. I’m not some huge company making bank here.

I’m not saying you personally are the problem, nor that theft is condoned or called for. I’m saying that in the greater labor market macro, there is no evidence that hard work and being diligent will be rewarded, and therefore it should come as no surprise that people are “acting their wage”, “quiet quitting”, or whatever the PR engine is calling it most recently as part of the marketing campaign.

Workers are responding to incentives and the environment they’re operating in, plain and simple. When people don’t care, I don’t blame them, it’s the second order effects that result that sucks. I have no solution to suggest unfortunately besides only hire and work with professionals you know and trust.

Re: Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

#94

Post by smsm42 »

pierat wrote: post #63
smsm42 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you shoplift? Serious question. Shoplifting is rarely caught, and even more rarely prosecuted in many major cities (e.g. SF). While you probably won't be able to steal anything high value, there's a lot of things you'd be able to steal without being caught, and why pay for something if you can have it for free? Most grocery stores are owned by billion-dollar corporations, which don't hesitate to raise prices, enga…

Go look up banana trick, aka PLU 4011. This shoplifting joke is thanks to the replacement of humans with these terrible self(aka unpaid) scan machines. Stuff gets put in as bananas, and then weighed. You pay $.29/lb for whatever. And this works beautifully for high price stuff like steaks and the like. Not that I advocate physical theft, but it's definitely a thing. And it's a thing where more people are being screwe…

Do you understand you correctly that you claim a) it's ok to shoplift because grocery store owners are big corporations b) it's ok to shoplift because they make it too easy to shoplift c) it's ok to shoplift because they don't provide you with shopping experience you consider ideal d) since you see nothing wrong with shoplifting, you personally do it frequently, maybe every time you go to the grocery store?

Re: Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

#95

Post by pjscott »

anotherhue wrote: post #79
reustle wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> customers being forced to be unpaid employees Do you consider yourself a forced unpaid employee when you go through the checkout screen on Amazon?

That poster should look up what groceries stores used to look like...

The old ones where everything is behind the counter, fetched for you by the checkout clerk, to prevent shoplifting? I've seen the pictures, and I never want to go back to that kind of low-trust society. Please, I'm begging everyone who will listen: do not erode the social norms that let us have nice supermarkets. Or most other nice things.

Re: Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

#96

Post by therealdrag0 »

121789 wrote: post #73
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #14

I agree with Nihilartikel’s comment. It’s nice when you’re the one doing business development. But as a manager at any organization, the correct answer is to fire people like this because they become insidious and take over your business. Have a moral backbone. Is it fair? No. Lots of corporate decision making will never ever be fair. Deal with it, or work with these people. Find ways to financially incentivize moral…

Managers are not somehow exempt from this line of thinking. Firing someone is labor intensive for a manager and will actually reduce their power. No one wants to fire anyone, especially lately. This is clearly the result of corporations destroying workers’ incentive to produce quality work. If you don’t pay people to care, they will not care

Meh. I’ve seen very good and caring workers at all levels of the pay scale. Pay impacts caring, but caring doesn’t start with pay. Many people care because they value quality work intrinsically.

Re: Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

#97

Post by j_crick »

ajhurliman wrote: post #20

I can’t speak for others, but for myself it’s next to impossible to live a good life while working a job where I sink into a “plaintext passwords” type of mindset. That being said, I don’t really envy that mindset, I suspect there’s something fundamentally broken about a mind that’s resigned to treating a supposedly symbiotic relationship as adversarial, even though it may be a warranted reaction given how so many co…

You’d be surprised at the amount of people in, say, Europe, who don’t identify with their daytime jobs in the ways some Americans do. The mindset I’m talking about is something along the line of that there’s actual life outside work, and your job is used to pay for it, and that’s about it. In some societies it can be even perceived as rude and selfish if you’re trying to push and be competitive.

Re: Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

#98

Post by splistud »

pierat wrote: post #63
smsm42 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you shoplift? Serious question. Shoplifting is rarely caught, and even more rarely prosecuted in many major cities (e.g. SF). While you probably won't be able to steal anything high value, there's a lot of things you'd be able to steal without being caught, and why pay for something if you can have it for free? Most grocery stores are owned by billion-dollar corporations, which don't hesitate to raise prices, enga…

Go look up banana trick, aka PLU 4011. This shoplifting joke is thanks to the replacement of humans with these terrible self(aka unpaid) scan machines. Stuff gets put in as bananas, and then weighed. You pay $.29/lb for whatever. And this works beautifully for high price stuff like steaks and the like. Not that I advocate physical theft, but it's definitely a thing. And it's a thing where more people are being screwe…

[dead]

Re: Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

#99

Post by electromech »

d23 wrote: post #46

Great article. Sums up what I've observed over my entire career. Incentives are orthogonal at best to what is actually good for the company, and at times, doing things that actively harm the company can be the way up the ladder. We're worse than bad at measuring and rewarding good performance.

Right! Other commenters here seem to have interpreted the article backwards. How I read it: caring and working hard can get you punished; taking the safe and easy path can get you rewarded. Sadly, that lines up with my experience.

Although I still love the work (the real work) I hate The Game® more and more every year.

Re: Maybe you should store passwords in plaintext

#100

Post by RalfWausE »

pjscott wrote: post #95
anotherhue wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That poster should look up what groceries stores used to look like...

The old ones where everything is behind the counter, fetched for you by the checkout clerk, to prevent shoplifting? I've seen the pictures, and I never want to go back to that kind of low-trust society. Please, I'm begging everyone who will listen: do not erode the social norms that let us have nice supermarkets. Or most other nice things.

I am more in the "do everything you can to let the big corporations die" camp... but to each their own
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