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Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

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Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#91

Can I pay for a Starbucks Double Frap Latte with Apple stock? Probably not, Apple stock is a security, not a currency... I'm sure someone has tried. But can I use Apple Stock as an investment vehicle? Yes. Conversely, can I pay for said surgary drink in DodgeCoin? Well no, you can't, but not for the same reasons. Starbucks doesn't have the facilities to accept DodgeCoin. Can you use it as an investment vehicle? Yes.…

Cryptocurrencies are a currency that people are using as an investment.

> Conversely, can I pay for said surgary drink in DodgeCoin? Well no, you can't, but not for the same reasons. Starbucks doesn't have the facilities to accept DodgeCoin

I can't pay for my Starbucks in the USA using Euros, but that doesn't make the Euro not a currency.

IMO, anybody trying to call a cryptocurrency a security is arguing in bad faith. A security has to represent something of value. A stock gives you a tiny fraction of ownership of a company. Cryptocurrencies give you nothing. They have no underlying value.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#92
post #7

I actually agree with Armstrong here - the SEC has had plenty of time to assess the market for crypto products and offer clear rules...it almost feels like the indecisiveness is an intentional policy used to cow the industry.

They have clear rules, it's not clear to me why Coinbase does not think that those rules apply to them.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#93

How much of this is actually opaque regulation, and how much is "we don't like the rules the SEC has, so we are going to do our best to not understand them"?

Gensler has publicly said “everything other than Bitcoin” is a security. https://cryptoslate.com/sec-chair-gensler-confirms-everythin... I'm not saying Coinbase has to agree with that decision, but it's a little silly they're posturing to the public like they're unaware. It's not exactly a secret. If they disagree then going to court is probably their only move.

That's not what he said. He said "Bitcoin is the only thing that is definitely not a security", everything else is undecided. Big difference.

Terrible reporting from crypto slate even when it's an opinion piece.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#94
Here's Matt Levine's column on this:

-------------------------------------

Coinbase Chief Legal Officer Paul Grewal wrote a blog post:

    The SEC staff told us they have identified potential violations of securities law, but little more. We asked the SEC specifically to identify which assets on our platforms they believe may be securities, and they declined to do so. Today’s Wells notice also comes after Coinbase provided multiple proposals to the SEC about registration over the course of months, all of which the SEC ultimately refused to respond to. …

    The Wells notice comes out of the investigation that we disclosed last summer. Shortly after that investigation began, the SEC asked us if we would be interested in discussing a potential resolution that would include registering some portion of our business with the SEC. We said absolutely yes. Specifically, the SEC asked us to provide our views on what a registration path for Coinbase could look like – because there is no existing way for a crypto exchange to register. We developed and proposed two different registration models. We spent millions of dollars on legal support to build these proposals and repeatedly asked for the SEC’s feedback. We got none. We also reiterated that we stand by our listings process – we don’t list securities today – and repeatedly invited the SEC to raise any questions about any asset at all on our platform. They raised none. …

    Regulatory uncertainty in the crypto industry is getting worse. Instead of developing a regulatory framework for crypto, the SEC is continuing to regulate by enforcement only. 
I sympathize with all of this, and I have written similar things. It is truly hard to fit the particular features of crypto into the existing US system for regulating securities, and a conscientious securities regulator with an interest in crypto regulation would sit down and write rules explaining how a project could register its crypto securities, how a crypto exchange could list crypto securities, etc. (Obviously Coinbase’s proposal to write those rules for the SEC is kind of self-interested, but sure in general regulation proceeds with industry input.)

On the other hand I think that the SEC’s response is straightforward and obvious:

    There absolutely are existing, reasonably clear rules about how you register securities.
    Yes, you’re right, it’s impossible for crypto tokens to follow those rules.
    Oh well! Guess that means crypto exchanges are illegal.
The position of Coinbase — and of the crypto industry more broadly — is “look, SEC, if you want to have a flourishing system of legally compliant, safe, trustworthy crypto assets, you will need to work with us a little bit to write new rules,” and the position of the SEC is “no, we don’t want that, we want all of you to go away forever.” If Bernie Madoff came to the SEC and said “if you want a higher class of more trustworthy Ponzi schemes, you will need to write a few new rules adapting the disclosure regime to Ponzi schemes,” the SEC would have said “no we absolutely do not want that, we want much less Ponzi scheming, and we certainly do not want to give our approval to Ponzi schemes by writing rules for them.” One gets the sense the attitude to crypto is similar.

On the other hand Coinbase is an SEC-registered public company with an SEC-registered broker-dealer license! The approval is kind of already there! The SEC’s attitude to crypto is extremely negative, but it is only slowly getting around to doing anything about it — and in particular it is only slowly getting around to going after big respectable crypto firms like Coinbase. And in the interim, those firms have had time to get bigger and more respectable, with the SEC’s quiet acquiescence.

Here again I think the explanation is obvious but unsatisfying. I wrote last month:

    I submit to you that the main fact of crypto regulation in early 2023 is that regulators feel really burned by the events of 2022, and particularly by the collapse of FTX. “We want to work with these nice smart young people who are building the financial system of the future, and I am sure that with their advice we can write smart regulations that protect consumers while still fostering innovation” was a totally normal thing for regulators (except the SEC) to think and say in 2021. But now it is not! Now too many of those smart young people are under indictment or giving interviews from undisclosed locations; too much customer money is gone. If you run a crypto exchange and you want to set up a meeting with regulators to talk about how to write regulations to prevent a repeat of the recent crypto collapses, they will not trust you, because that is what FTX was saying too. There is not much goodwill left. …

    When crypto is popular and exciting and going up, if you are a regulator who says “no, we must stop this,” you look like a killjoy. Investors want to put their money into stuff that is going up, and they are mad at you for stopping them. Politicians like the stuff that is going up, and hold hearings about how you’re stifling innovation. Crypto founders are rich and popular and criticize you on Twitter and get a lot of likes and retweets. Your own regulatory employees, who have an eye on their next private-sector jobs, want to be leaders in crypto innovation rather than just banning everything.

    When crypto is going down and so many projects are evaporating in fraud and bankruptcy, you can kind of say “I told you so.” There is just a lot more appetite to regulate, or I guess just to shut everything down. “You are stifling innovation,” the indicted founder of a bankrupt crypto firm can say, but nobody cares. 
This is unsatisfying, first of all, from a rule-of-law perspective: The SEC used a light touch in regulating crypto on the way up, which encouraged a lot of companies (like Coinbase) to get into crypto, invest a lot of resources, hire a lot of people and build big businesses. (And which encouraged lots of people to invest in crypto, on the theory that if it was really bad the SEC would have stopped it.) If the SEC now says that was all illegal, it seems harsh and arbitrary. As Armstrong says, the SEC had plenty of opportunities to object to Coinbase in the past; it didn’t, and Coinbase relied on the SEC’s acceptance in building its business. The answer — “we would have objected in 2021, but crypto was cool then and people would have gotten mad at us for getting in the way, but now crypto is bad and we can do whatever we want” — does not feel like great regulatory procedure.

It is also bad substantive regulation — bad consumer protection — to encourage crypto on the way up and crack down on after the crash. Stopping people from investing in crypto after they’ve lost all their money doesn’t do them any good! You want to stop the crash! You want to “take away the punch bowl just as the party gets going,” but that is easy to say and hard, politically, to do. When the party is over and everyone is nursing a crushing hangover, no one cares what you do with the punch bowl. “Ugh that punch bowl, get it out of here, what even was in that,” they will retch.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is that everyone who went to the SEC and asked them if they could do something was told absolutely not. The people who didn't ask seemed to be getting away with it. So everyone stopped asking. However that didn't change the facts of the situation. At some point even the mightiest ostrich must get rekt.

Securities are legal and Coinbase is a licensed broker dealer which means they are allowed to sell securities if they are registered with the SEC. The SEC is saying that crypto is a security while simultaneously not allowing them to be registered as a security. So they are treating it like a security from an enforcement perspective, but not from a regulatory perspective. They can't have it both ways. It must either b…

If your coin meets the Howie test it’s a security and must be registered with the SEC. If you go to the SEC and say “hey, please register my security so I can scam some people”, and they say no, your security doesn’t stop being a security, it’s just not a registered security. Going on to cry about them then prosecuting you for operating an unregistered securities exchange is purile.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SEC doesn’t give out legal advice.

They ought to. Giving advice is the difference between having the government work with the people, on the same side, and having it be an adversary. The goal should be legal compliance and productive companies. Not clarifying what you will or will not prosecute simply creates unnecessary fear and distrust of the system. Think of all the crime that would not be committed if only the SEC said it was criminal before hand…

But this is only a "problem" for those who want to ride right on the line of what's technically legal. People who strive to stay within what the law is trying to accomplish, who are with the spirit of the law rather than the letter, have no such issues.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is that everyone who went to the SEC and asked them if they could do something was told absolutely not. The people who didn't ask seemed to be getting away with it. So everyone stopped asking. However that didn't change the facts of the situation. At some point even the mightiest ostrich must get rekt.

Securities are legal and Coinbase is a licensed broker dealer which means they are allowed to sell securities if they are registered with the SEC. The SEC is saying that crypto is a security while simultaneously not allowing them to be registered as a security. So they are treating it like a security from an enforcement perspective, but not from a regulatory perspective. They can't have it both ways. It must either b…

The SEC isn't saying that crypto is a security.

It's saying that some crypto tokens are securities, and that Coinbase is trading at least one of those tokens.

It doesn't matter how much Coinbase wants a particular token to not be a security, or whether they had 30 meetings, or 300 meetings where they ask for that token to not be a security. If it passes the Howie test, it's a security.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#99
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Securities are legal and Coinbase is a licensed broker dealer which means they are allowed to sell securities if they are registered with the SEC. The SEC is saying that crypto is a security while simultaneously not allowing them to be registered as a security. So they are treating it like a security from an enforcement perspective, but not from a regulatory perspective. They can't have it both ways. It must either b…

So, you’re saying that Coinbase knowingly offered unregistered security. And acknowledged that’s not legal. The fact the SEC refuses these securities to be registered doesn’t negate the illegal offering of unregistered securities.

If you look at the recent SEC filing, they present evidence Coinbase likely knew what they were doing was illegal and coached companies wanting to list coins on the exchange on how to remove “problematic language” from their promotional material that might make it too obvious they were selling unregistered securities.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#100
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Armstrong says they did, and says they met to discuss things like this. We will see what happened in reality during the course of the court case. I don't think it is wise to trust the words of any crypto actors.

I don't agree with you. There are many actors in the crypto ecosystem and sadly the scammers and bad guys have, in general, better execution an exposure that the good ones. Personally I was involved in helping representatives in writing laws to move forward. If there is no guidance you can build an organization that could be destroyed arbitrarily in one day. SEC had enough time... I don't want to exaggerate but it se…

> bad guys have, in general, better execution an exposure that the good ones.

So much better that I take it purely on faith that there are decent people in that space. I have to take it on faith, because I haven't actually seen or heard from any of them and so have no evidence that they exist.

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