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Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

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Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#91

Post by francisofascii »

luckylion wrote: post #48
standardUser wrote: post #35

I have a really hard time believing that non-violent crimes should result in a person being locked in a cage. I'd rather see restrictions that limit their ability to do more damage, like when a reckless driver gets their license revoked. Besides, a free person with a job can pay back their debt to society, literally, with money, instead of the rest of us paying their living costs. EDIT: As comments point out, it is a…

In short: you don't want them to feel any consequences beyond having to pay back the money. I'm sure that'll work great as a deterrent.

Jail and paying money are not the only two deterrents available.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#92

Post by 23B1 »

cale- wrote: post #60
shadowgovt wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a bad idea. Skipping town on a sentence puts one in a rarified category where enforcement is now a federal problem, and the FBI has long memories, an international reach, and no statute of limitations on how long they can hunt a person who is sentenced. At which point, if they fall back under US custody, they get to start their sentence (as well as go on trial for the additional penalties associated wit…

That case sounds interesting, but I couldn't find anything on a cursory google. Can you provide some more details? Thanks

Might be the Fawaz Younis thing: https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/fawaz-younis

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#93

Post by jjulius »

shadowgovt wrote: post #27
ExMachina73 wrote: post #18

Any bets she actually reports? Odds anyone? I feel a woman of her means and personality may try to disappear, go off grid. Does she still have access to money? Were her assets frozen?

That would be a bad idea. Skipping town on a sentence puts one in a rarified category where enforcement is now a federal problem, and the FBI has long memories, an international reach, and no statute of limitations on how long they can hunt a person who is sentenced. At which point, if they fall back under US custody, they get to start their sentence (as well as go on trial for the additional penalties associated wit…

>That would be a bad idea.

And one she's certainly (allegedly?) entertained in the past ~year[0].

>As evidence of what they described as her “attempt to flee the country shortly after she was convicted,” prosecutors highlighted the plane ticket Holmes had booked for Jan. 26, 2022, without any scheduled return date.

>They complained to her defense team that she hadn’t notified them or the court about the trip, which violated her bail conditions...

[0]https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/elizabeth-hol...

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#94

Post by IIAOPSW »

rootusrootus wrote: post #9
IIAOPSW wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but Holmes didn't steal $5k more than three times. She stole millions of dollars but only did it once. So your statute doesn't apply.

She only got caught once, but as an ongoing thing I think it's safe to say that she stole more than once.

But did she steal more than 5k more than once. As written, you can steal $25 a million times and the law does not apply. You can steal $25 million one time and the law does not apply.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#95

Post by JumpCrisscross »

vel0city wrote: post #64
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it baffles me that as of today I can still add a "Full Self-Driving Capability" option when ordering a Tesla Capability, not feature. I know that isn’t how it’s marketed. But Elon isn’t claiming he has Level 5 right now. Most FSD buyers seem aware they’re paying into a research effort. Fraud requires knowledge and intent. You’re making a good case for a class action lawsuit, i.e. civil action. Not for putting someo…

In 2019 Musk publicly stated Model 3's would support robotic taxi functionality in 2020.

> 2019 Musk publicly stated Model 3's would support robotic taxi functionality in 2020

No evidence these forecasts were made in bad faith. Delusion isn’t criminal. It’s mis-selling in the here and now, in absolute terms, in a way that causes damage, that is problematic.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#96

Post by lesuorac »

standardUser wrote: post #35

I have a really hard time believing that non-violent crimes should result in a person being locked in a cage. I'd rather see restrictions that limit their ability to do more damage, like when a reckless driver gets their license revoked. Besides, a free person with a job can pay back their debt to society, literally, with money, instead of the rest of us paying their living costs. EDIT: As comments point out, it is a…

idk, corporations shell out a ton of money in fines for crimes they re-commit later on.

There's an argument that holmes would learn her lesson with a ~2yr sentence as opposed to an 11yr sentence. But I'm unconvinced that a 0yr sentence paid for by investor funds would prevent future crime.

It's like kids, they think you're joking about a penalty until you actual turn the car around once.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#97

Post by LanceJones »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #79
LanceJones wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an FSD Beta user. If you stop reading at "Full Self Driving Capability", then yes, it's an issue for a potential purchaser. But if you read just a little bit more, it becomes more clear what you're buying. I don't feel "fooled" and neither do 1000s of other Beta testers with whom I regularly communicate on Discord.

It is not about not being fooled, it is about maintaining standards so that people in society can spend less time ensuring they do not get fooled.

Valid point.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#98

Post by sorokod »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #87
sorokod wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you rationalize violent/non-violent as boundary for jail/no-jail?

> rationalize violent/non-violent as boundary for jail/no-jail Government has a monopoly on violence. This is a founding theory of why we have states. Furthermore, violence causes damage money can’t fix. Most non-violent crimes’ damages can be dollarised within margin.

Don't see how government's monopoly on legal violence is relevant here.

Assuming bad faith by the manufacturer, how would you "dollarise" damage caused by incorrect sample analysis that caused the death of a patient ?

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#99

Post by Spoom »

luckylion wrote: post #48
standardUser wrote: post #35

I have a really hard time believing that non-violent crimes should result in a person being locked in a cage. I'd rather see restrictions that limit their ability to do more damage, like when a reckless driver gets their license revoked. Besides, a free person with a job can pay back their debt to society, literally, with money, instead of the rest of us paying their living costs. EDIT: As comments point out, it is a…

In short: you don't want them to feel any consequences beyond having to pay back the money. I'm sure that'll work great as a deterrent.

Any time I've ever heard fines used in the context of a business, it's never paying back the money. It's paying back a fraction of the money. And usually it's to the government, not to the people harmed.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#100

Post by dragonwriter »

shadowgovt wrote: post #27
ExMachina73 wrote: post #18

Any bets she actually reports? Odds anyone? I feel a woman of her means and personality may try to disappear, go off grid. Does she still have access to money? Were her assets frozen?

That would be a bad idea. Skipping town on a sentence puts one in a rarified category where enforcement is now a federal problem, and the FBI has long memories, an international reach, and no statute of limitations on how long they can hunt a person who is sentenced. At which point, if they fall back under US custody, they get to start their sentence (as well as go on trial for the additional penalties associated wit…

> Skipping town on a sentence puts one in a rarified category where enforcement is now a federal problem

Enforcement of federal crimes like those Holmes was charged with is federal to start with. Skipping sentence makes it a US Marshals’ problem, though.

> I’m aware of one case where for a suspect in a murder, the FBI put together a yacht party in a foreign country, got the target on the ship, sailed it out to international waters, and took them into custody at that point.

Federal law enforcement has straight up hired people to kidnap a suspect from a country with which we have an extradition treaty; your example is hardly extreme. (And I’m talking about before the War on Terror.)

Though the best example of that is the DEA, not the FBI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Alvarez-Macha...

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