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Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

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Re: Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

#91

Post by sbaiddn »

Teever wrote: post #75
wmeredith wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the carbon emissions match, the drivetrain in an ICE vehicle contains 2,000+ moving parts typically, whereas the drivetrain in an EV contains around 20. The benefits of TVs range beyond direct carbon emissions from the power unit.

Not only that but all the innovations that we see in batteries can trickle down to all kinds of consumer devices.

In the face of civilizational collapse due to taking the wrong strategy vis a vis carbon emissions, my iPhone's battery life seems inconsequential.

Re: Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

#92

Post by phpisthebest »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #69
phpisthebest wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not realize a Tax Credit, that also has a TON of strings attached that as it phases into more protectionism fewer and fewer EV's will be able to quality for, and it at odds with other Environmental / Climate protections (like the requirement that Lithium some from approved NA vendors, but then disallowing new Lithium manufacturing in the US) is now a Mandate the produce EV's The claim I responded to was that Co…

Before 2030 we'll be seeing $7500 rebates on $15000 cars. That's a pretty strong mandate. Also, this proposed EPA rule is an even stronger mandate: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/08/climate/biden-electric-ca...

There is zero chance the manufacturing environment can move that fast. I know I work in it.

The government can place all the magic words on the page they want, there are structural limits to how fast mines, plants, and other things can be built, even if Ford, GM, VW etc can switch their factories to EV's there is an entire supply chain that can not spin up that fast. Copper and Lithium production alone would need to increase by like 900%, that is not happening in just a few years time.

Re: Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

#93

Post by jackmott42 »

Scoundreller wrote: post #77
giobox wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the primary reason I wouldn't go back to combustion. The running costs of electric vehicles are absurdly low at times. You can put 50k-100k miles on most EVs on sale today having only bought cabin air filters, tires and wiper blades in addition to the cost of the electricity - thats largely it!

> You can put 50k-100k miles I get that on my ICE brakes too. My secret? Engine braking and taking my foot off the gas when the light ahead is red: something nobody seems to do sadly. Are EV suspensions over-built enough to account for the extra weight they’re carrying? Imo that’s the big expense once vehicles start showing their age. Extremely dependent on road conditions though… not great in the salt belt.

No, all engineers working on EVs forgot to design suspension components strong enough for the mass of the car. At Tesla and Ford and GM they are all idiots.

Re: Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

#94

Post by sbaiddn »

Scoundreller wrote: post #77
giobox wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the primary reason I wouldn't go back to combustion. The running costs of electric vehicles are absurdly low at times. You can put 50k-100k miles on most EVs on sale today having only bought cabin air filters, tires and wiper blades in addition to the cost of the electricity - thats largely it!

> You can put 50k-100k miles I get that on my ICE brakes too. My secret? Engine braking and taking my foot off the gas when the light ahead is red: something nobody seems to do sadly. Are EV suspensions over-built enough to account for the extra weight they’re carrying? Imo that’s the big expense once vehicles start showing their age. Extremely dependent on road conditions though… not great in the salt belt.

Hehe, when I got my brakes done the mechanic assumed I was getting my third set. I told him they were my second set.

He chuckled and said: "I guess you know how to use the down-shifter"

Re: Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

#95

Post by jackmott42 »

sbaiddn wrote: post #73
wmeredith wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the carbon emissions match, the drivetrain in an ICE vehicle contains 2,000+ moving parts typically, whereas the drivetrain in an EV contains around 20. The benefits of TVs range beyond direct carbon emissions from the power unit.

Look, what follows is my opinion and why Im against EVs for the short to mid term future. Im not a domain expert, but I am a physicist and an engineer whose worked in energy and for the DOE on sustainable energy sources. Again, Im not a car engineer. Carbon emissions is why we're transitioning. Its why EVs are made mandatory. Its the premise that the EV has to fulfill. Thousands of little ICE parts have little conseq…

Can you show the spreadsheet on this EV vs hybridizing N vehicles? Pretty tricky full lifecycle analysis to do. It would be a little bit strange intuitively since hybrids also take a lot of resources to build, as you must build a transmission, an engine, all the infrastructure around an engine, some kind of integration of that engine with the electric motor, AND the electric motor, AND a small battery pack.

Hybrids also have the highest fire risk of all types (EV vs ICE vs Hybrid)

Re: Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

#96

Post by jackmott42 »

sbaiddn wrote: post #37
hcurtiss wrote: post #3

Combined with the investments in Tennessee, Kentucky, and Michigan, this is "bet the company" levels of investment. I pray for Ford's sake they picked the right horse (vis-à-vis, e.g., hydrogen or ammonia).

Its a regulatory bet, not an engineering one. The West is making a civilizational bet on EVs so it's not Ford that loses the bet, its the entire West. From a technical POV, I disagree with the bet. I think hybridization of ICE while transitioning to CNG+1%NH3 fuel (to have very high compression engines) makes a lot more sense. Afterall, if you can make an ICE match an electrical power plant's carbon emissions, electr…

Whats the co2 and environmental impact of building out CNG infrastructure for refueling? That seems vastly more costly in terms of resources than running wires to charge EVs. Especially when the electricity needed to charge an EV is the same as the electricity/energy needed to refine a tank of gasoline.

How much electricity will be needed to compress and refine the natural gas into fuel tanks? How big and heavy are those tanks?

Re: Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

#97

Post by jackmott42 »

_hypx wrote: post #72
wmeredith wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the carbon emissions match, the drivetrain in an ICE vehicle contains 2,000+ moving parts typically, whereas the drivetrain in an EV contains around 20. The benefits of TVs range beyond direct carbon emissions from the power unit.

I hope people realize that fuel cell cars are also EVs, and have only a handful more moving parts to deal with. People have mislead themselves into thinking the BEV is synonymous with all EVs. This type of thinking could easily lead people into making serious mistakes.

What serious mistake will be made?

Re: Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

#98

Post by vuln »

ch4s3 wrote: post #38
vuln wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ford also benefits from high import tariffs on foreign built trucks, a tariff basically designed to protect the F-150. Protect it from GM, Toyota, Rivian whom builds their Trucks in America? No American truck buyer wants a Mitsubishi or Hyundai truck. Full stop.

Rivian didn't exist, and Toyota didn't enter the US market until a year after the tariff and didn't build trucks for the US market then. Sure GM builds trucks too and benefits, but it was basically designed as a giveaway to Ford while keeping VW light trucks out of the US market in retaliation for Germany tariffs on chicken. > No American truck buyer wants a Mitsubishi or Hyundai truck. Full stop. Then why maintain a…

> Then why maintain a tariff from 1964 designed by the Johnson administration?

No clue, but seems pretty bipartisan. Maybe “National Security” or whatever excuse .gov comes up with…

Re: Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

#99

Post by sbaiddn »

giobox wrote: post #50
wmeredith wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the carbon emissions match, the drivetrain in an ICE vehicle contains 2,000+ moving parts typically, whereas the drivetrain in an EV contains around 20. The benefits of TVs range beyond direct carbon emissions from the power unit.

This is the primary reason I wouldn't go back to combustion. The running costs of electric vehicles are absurdly low at times. You can put 50k-100k miles on most EVs on sale today having only bought cabin air filters, tires and wiper blades in addition to the cost of the electricity - thats largely it!

A hybrid takes care of the brakes. What are the next big consumable in an ICE vs EV? Oil changes? Hardly a deal breaker. Air filters? $10 and often easier to instal than the cabin air filter.

With fuel injection, spark plugs can easily go 120k+ miles. I have never replaced them and no engine Ive owned ever seemed bothered by it.

Spark plug wiring? My uncle did that once on his civic... when it had 180k miles and was 25 years old. He was ready to junk the car, but he ended up driving it until he moved away and sold it.

If your ICE doesn't outlive your car (with regular oil changes) you drive like a maniac or buy cheap cars (you know the brands)

Re: Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

#100

Post by giobox »

_hypx wrote: post #90
giobox wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whats selective? Look at the world around you - BEV sales are in the millions of units per year. It's just common sense analysis. Toyota shipped 2000 Mirais in 2022, I feel for the owners.

And over a billion ICE cars... Not to mention that if you go back a handful of years, BEVs were in the same boat as FCEVs. Like I said, all of this is selective reasoning and doesn't prove anything. And you're still ignoring my point about the resource problem. We could be forced to suddenly change our minds by reality no matter what. Worth noting that something similar undermined all of the biofuel strategies of the…

> And over a billion ICE cars...

The world does not sell over a billion ICE cars annually, not even close.

BEVs are already over 10 percent of global annual sales by unit count, with recent studies putting last year at 1/7 sales being BEV. BEV sales grow enormously YoY at expense of ICE.

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