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If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

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Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#91

Post by tristor »

misnome wrote: post #75
tristor wrote: post #56

Frankly, what the IA did here is absolutely the right thing. Copyright in the US is horribly fundamentally broken, and the idea that factual information about our history and world should not be referenceable and accessible for free is a pretty heinous one. Information wants to be free, and the work that IA did for "digital lending" during the pandemic was an essential move in the direction of ensuring that people ca…

IA losing and getting shut down because "information wants to be free, man" is completely detrimental to trying to move that agenda forwards. "First principles" means jack shit if your company to build that world gets wiped off the map because you did something incredibly obviously stupidly illegal and handed the "MAFIAA lawyers" your own ass on a silver platter.

Maybe my viewpoint on this is informed by long-standing desire to basically start something like IA but in a way which is protected from the acts of nation-states. The fundamental problem with human society is that the power structures are always co-opted by elites for their own purposes rather than the purposes of society as a whole, it doesn't matter what the system of those power structures is, in all cases they get co-opted.

The fact that a corporate entity is allowed to take action against the IA in this case and be supported by the government in doing so is a symptom of our broken system, it's not evidence that the IA did anything wrong in any moral or social sense. The fact our society is held hostage, and that information is imprisoned, by entities like the MAFIAA is not a justification for this outcome.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#92

Post by bee_rider »

zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #29
mistrial9 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you like the product, you can't pick and choose the traits of the origin.. source-- rock and roll biz

Nah, why would I give them money when they do blatantly illegal stuff?

It seems like a reasonably thing, to stop giving the Internet Archive money if you think they might be a bad steward of it.

The comparison to rockstars is kind of interesting though, they often engaged in behavior that was criminal, and sometime pretty odious. We gave them money because we liked their cultural output, and they wouldn’t give it away for free.

The Internet Archive doesn’t demand money, produces stuff with much arguably greater social value, and doesn’t really do anything odious (just illegal).

In the end I have a streaming subscription and don’t give money to charities (maybe when I get a good job I will). Funny to think about, though.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#93

Post by orangepurple »

Fr3ck wrote: post #30
bruce511 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I wonder if there needs to be a cultural equivalent, where a repository of digital or physical artifacts is "too big to fail" because of the negative cultural impact their failure would have. You can wonder all you like, and call me a cynic, but the US runs on money not culture. The American identity is built on money and wealth and excess, not on anything you might describe as "culture". The IA would not "fail" i…

The USA's biggest export is our culture...like it or not. Think of movies, music, etc. Some of it is intangible.

The export is propaganda to promote US government stability and induce demand of American goods and services. So in the end it's money anyway.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#94

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

reaperducer wrote: post #48
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're doing us all a favor is what they're doing. Intellectual property is just not that important when compared with ensuring that the powerful can't rewrite history. If they lose their case, I hope the project can be kept afloat in ways that the US government can't interfere with.

I hope the project can be kept afloat in ways that the US government can't interfere with. The U.S. government, oddly, is the least of my fears when it comes to rewriting history. Private enterprise is already doing it, even going to far as to reach into your private library of books and music to change them after you're purchased it: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/04/arts/dahl-christie-stine-... Until yesterday, I…

I'm not sure Apple really thinks of it as "your" computer either.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#95

Post by boomboomsubban »

causi wrote: post #66
Xelynega wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not in court for the emergency library. They're in court for the 1-1 CDL lending they did. I'm tired of seeing this "well IA shouldn't have done the emergency library" line. Do you honestly believe the only reason publishers went after IA is the emergency library? I think this would have happened eventually, so pointing to the emergency library does nothing but tell everyone that you were right all along. The…

They were only sued after they launched the Emergency Library. Also, Koeltl's current ruling applies in particular to lending without the waitlist restriction is legal. CDL in general isn't yet ruled on. IA's actions with the NEL not only prompted the lawsuit in the first place but have almost certainly poisoned the well with regards to the final ruling on CDL.

>They were only sued after they launched the Emergency Library

There is plenty of evidence they were planning this far before the Emergency Library. Like the 2019 press push, https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/l...

> Also, Koeltl's current ruling applies in particular to lending without the waitlist restriction is legal. CDL in general isn't yet ruled on

Completely untrue. The entire judgment is about the CDL with the NEL only being mentioned as also being illegal as the CDL already was

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#96

Post by snapetom »

Xelynega wrote: post #49
causi wrote: post #19

which made copyrighted books available for free during the COVID-19 pandemic. The publishers behind the lawsuit alleged that this entailed copyright infringement. Along with everybody with two brain cells to rub together. We all screamed "Hey, you idiots are going to ruin everything if you act like the pandemic has magically nullified the concept of copyright" and they fucking did it anyway, and now exactly what we s…

They're not in court for the emergency library. They're in court for the 1-1 CDL lending they did. I'm tired of seeing this "well IA shouldn't have done the emergency library" line. Do you honestly believe the only reason publishers went after IA is the emergency library? I think this would have happened eventually, so pointing to the emergency library does nothing but tell everyone that you were right all along. The…

The lawsuit was filed three months after NEL was launched. Controlled Digital Lending has been around for years and is used by public libraries. Publishers didn’t like it CDL, but they lived with it.

There absolutely is a correlation between NEL and the lawsuit. It’s a small part of the lawsuit, but it’s clear it pushed them to go to war against IA.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#97

Post by jmull »

AI was foolish and irresponsible. Republishing books without limitations would almost surely provoke a law suit that they would almost surely lose.

Not only is it a waste of resources, but now that they are in court they could very easily receive a judgement that curtails access they used to provide before the rollout of the "emergency library".

It's fine (and right, IMO) if you don't agree with the current copyright law but just ignoring them was foolish.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#98

Post by birdyrooster »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #76
tristor wrote: post #56

Frankly, what the IA did here is absolutely the right thing. Copyright in the US is horribly fundamentally broken, and the idea that factual information about our history and world should not be referenceable and accessible for free is a pretty heinous one. Information wants to be free, and the work that IA did for "digital lending" during the pandemic was an essential move in the direction of ensuring that people ca…

Whether you support copyright or not, the Internet Archive did a dumb thing that will probably cost us having the Internet Archive. Everyone is mad because everyone saw it coming and told them not to risk it all. I'm not "supporting" the cops when I tell someone they should stop their car when they get pulled over. I'm recommending someone not get themselves shot.

If the conversation ends with “be afraid of cops” and not, “let’s organize to change cops”, then you are supporting cops. Like in this instance we need to rally around copyleft politicians for the next election cycle so that something like this can’t happen again. We need to have willpower and not be so weak willed to let the rent seekers win.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#99

Post by orangepurple »

netr0ute wrote: post #57
tablespoon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You can wonder all you like, and call me a cynic, but the US runs on money not culture. The American identity is built on money and wealth and excess, not on anything you might describe as "culture". > The USA's biggest export is our culture...like it or not. Think of movies, music, etc. Some of it is intangible. Yeah, but that's not high culture. It's mass-market culture that makes a lot of money. I think what th…

What's the definition of high culture?

High culture is exactly equal to "surrogate activities" defined in this document: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unab...

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#100

Post by ummonk »

lyu07282 wrote: post #50
jawns wrote: post #4

I know the government has viewed certain companies as "too big to fail," because of the negative financial impact we would experience if they were to do so. I wonder if there needs to be a cultural equivalent, where a repository of digital or physical artifacts is "too big to fail" because of the negative cultural impact their failure would have. In the absence of that, anyone who sees high cultural value to the pres…

> we should be looking at ways to preserve those artifacts redundantly, so that even if the IA fails, it's not a calamity Its 212 petabytes as of december 2021[1], that alone would be a bit less than 12 thousand 18 TB HDDs or LTO-9's. We've made virtually zero significant progress in long-term storage technology. Its like if they are getting burned like the library of alexandria because of some copyright vampires, I…

An order of magnitude more expensive than HDD (let alone tape), but doesn't M-Disc offer a solution here?
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