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Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

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Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#91
post #9

I feel like it might look quite cool if it was patched with new copper (at least if it was done well). A bit like kintsugi pottery.

Often the kind of thing people hate for a while, and then with enough time becomes iconic and you'd probably end up with an article about how they were debating whether to preserve it or not as it aged. I think about this a lot when it comes to "eyesores", particularly wind turbines. When you think of how windmills are considered picturesque, it always makes me a little surprised when people moan about modern wind ge…

I live in an area with lots of windmills, where land owners of otherwise useless scrub ground have made good money providing a space for them. It has become a political issue for people literally "titling at windmills" as it were. Any conversation you have with them isn't about the windmill at all, apart from as you point out, some highly subjective statements about "eyesores" (which is ironic considering the ground on which these things are most commonly installed).

The "real" complaints tend to be some absolute insanity about "medical issues" that are caused by the windmills. Or harm to wildlife, even though study after study debunks these views. Sometimes they try an environmental move, bringing up the waste from retired blades - all while ignoring the alternatives and their environmental harm.

The real story is, these are people who just don't want progress. They don't want change. They are perfectly content with their Folgers coffee in a styrofoam cup and iceberg lettuce with ranch dressing. They want their news in paper form. Those windmills are just totems representing a world that scares them because it doesn't fit into their neat little navel-gazing bread basket.

What I've noticed is that anger toward windmills in our area has grown over the decades since they started installing them rather than dissipated, as more of those angry old grumps realize that they won't get their old world back.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#92
post #87
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone involved with chemistry uses the metric system. As does anyone who plays soccer. It's everywhere. Go look at any item in your pantry, metric units will be printed on it.

Yeah, that was largely my point, everyone who complains about america not being metric has not been to the store, I think we're around as metrified at the UK, the one difference is we still use Fahrenheit, and anything sold bulk measure is sold in pounds - packaged goods have Metric on them either because of a legal requirement, or because of bleedover from Canada and Mexico, most store scales can do KG or Pounds - b…

I'm not convinced re: cross-border sales. When Canada was on the imperial system they were on the actual Imperial system. The one the British adopted in 1826. That's post-revolution so the US was on the US customary system which evolved alongside the Metric system and for similar reasons. This means that gallons were different sizes. Today Canada sells milk in bags, I'm not sure that's even available in the US. Cars in Canada have different gauge clusters to support primary-kph. There are probably additional differences in packaging. Does Canada use the same nutrition facts label?

I would believe that there's some standardization from NAFTA and similar agreements with our northern (and southern) neighbors. But I think Canada's usage of the Metric (and Imperial) systems has more to do with being part of the commonwealth and less to do with the US being nearby.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#93
post #79
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans use the metric system every day. And what's wrong with a penny? Decimal currency has to retain a fundamental unit or there are some amounts that can't be created.

I don't have a horse in this race, but I think what the commenter meant was, some places don't use the penny any more. In Canada, the penny is gone. It was too expensive to keep (cost of producing them is just silly, for their value of 1 cent.). So prices are just rounded when using cash: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/programs/about-canad... In as the penny was effectively worthless even a decade ago (when…

> cost of producing them is just silly, for their value of 1 cent.

I don't understand this argument. A penny is not disposable. They last for decades, being used in thousands of transactions. It only has to generate more economic value in its life than it cost to produce. The face value is irrelevant.

Dropping the penny just means you changed the resolution of your currency from 100ths to 20ths. Can I still run a credit card transaction for $1.17 in Canada?

> I just know it worked out very easily, and well, in Canada.

What benefits did Canada realize with this change?

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#94
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dislike of change is a worldwide constant, like gravity. Also, all measurement systems are functionally arbitrary - be it the kings foot, a rod in a library, or some mathematical constant - all are arbitrary, ours is just a little less rational and certainly less relational than others. Fahrenheit is just fine however thank you. (My ideal system would be a zero to 200 system, water would freeze at zero and boil at 20…

> Also, all measurement systems are functionally arbitrary It's not a question whether they are arbitrary, it's a question if they are technically consistent within themselves. The metric system is: Everything is orders of magnitude, powers of ten, throughout all the measurements. Consequently, everything measured by base units of distance and mass follows the same rules: A Watt is 1 Joule per second, which is 1 Newt…

> It's not a question whether they are arbitrary, it's a question if they are technically consistent within themselves.

It's important to note that the US does not and has never used the "Imperial System" which didn't even exist before 1826 which is post-revolutionary war. US Customary units evolved around the same time as the Metric system and used names from the Dutch and English systems for historical reasons. The motivation being global compatibility, not internal consistency. The US was an original signatory of the treaty of the Meter. The British Empire (and thus, Canada) was not.

Personally I think internal consistency is overrated. It's nice to have but really reads like marketing wank. What matters to people doing work is if they can do their jobs. In those contexts change is far more costly than conversion to a new system. Tooling will already be built to deal with appropriate units.

One example of this is in metalworking machines. Those tend to last for decades and entire companies have built portfolios of designs and programs in thousandths (base 10 for those playing along at home) of an inch. It is unlikely that converting all those designs to microns would justify the cost, so we don't.

Almost all food packaging in the US has both systems printed on it but I am unclear how my dinner will taste better if I measure the ingredients in SI units. It just doesn't matter in that context.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#95
post #81
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the oxidation of the green sometimes part of the aesthetic though ?

I would’ve liked to have seen the Statue of Liberty in its original copper glory. The green has certainly become iconic but I’m sure the copper brown color was a sight to see.

There's monel metal, which has copper and nickel. That resists corrosion and remains a smooth dull brown for at least a century. There were some monel metal sculptures in the art deco era, but it never caught on.

Stainless steel is an option. That lasts, and you can pressure wash it. There's some nice Art Deco stainless work from the 1930s, most notably at the Chrysler Building. But it's too shiny for most artistic uses.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#96
post #93
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a horse in this race, but I think what the commenter meant was, some places don't use the penny any more. In Canada, the penny is gone. It was too expensive to keep (cost of producing them is just silly, for their value of 1 cent.). So prices are just rounded when using cash: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/programs/about-canad... In as the penny was effectively worthless even a decade ago (when…

> cost of producing them is just silly, for their value of 1 cent. I don't understand this argument. A penny is not disposable. They last for decades, being used in thousands of transactions. It only has to generate more economic value in its life than it cost to produce. The face value is irrelevant. Dropping the penny just means you changed the resolution of your currency from 100ths to 20ths. Can I still run a cre…

Read some of the info / stats here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(Canadian_coin)#Abolitio...

The real problem is that pennies are worth nothing, (1 cent has no real value for people), so people hoard them, or don't care if they are damaged/lost.

Add to that, the cost of the metal is more than the face value, so illegal or not, people can buy them and profit by destroying them.

Look at these stats:

* A 2007 survey indicated that 37 percent of Canadians used pennies, but the government continued to produce about 816 million pennies per year, equal to 24 pennies per Canadian.

* In 2011 the Royal Canadian Mint had minted 1.1 billion pennies

Spending millions yearly, because people don't care, isn't sensible.

And yes, electronic means to the penny, cash means rounding.

Who cares? It all evens out in the end, and 2 cents is nothing, yet it saves tens of millions a year.

Not to mention, counting all those pennies for no reason.

You know how it worked for me? I'd get paid in cash, get a few pennies, and at end of day throw them on my dresser. Do you think I put them in my pocket, to count out next time?

No. No one did. Because it isn't worth the energy or time.

We'll probably phase out the nickle soon.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#97
post #92
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that was largely my point, everyone who complains about america not being metric has not been to the store, I think we're around as metrified at the UK, the one difference is we still use Fahrenheit, and anything sold bulk measure is sold in pounds - packaged goods have Metric on them either because of a legal requirement, or because of bleedover from Canada and Mexico, most store scales can do KG or Pounds - b…

I'm not convinced re: cross-border sales. When Canada was on the imperial system they were on the actual Imperial system. The one the British adopted in 1826. That's post-revolution so the US was on the US customary system which evolved alongside the Metric system and for similar reasons. This means that gallons were different sizes. Today Canada sells milk in bags, I'm not sure that's even available in the US. Cars…

I googled, and this was the answer, there is a separate similar requirement for metric labeling for cosmetics and the like.

https://www.packaginglaw.com/ask-an-attorney/are-both-imperi...

"Labels on packaged food regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) must provide the statement of quantity in both metric terms (grams, kilograms, milliliters, liters) and U.S. Customary System terms (ounces, pounds, fluid ounces). For meat, poultry, and poultry products, which are regulated by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), the statement of quantity need only be expressed in U.S. Customary System terms. The use of metric measurement is voluntary because the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act (FPLA), which regulates labeling of consumer commodities, exempts meat and poultry products from metric statement requirements. (See 15 USC 1459(a)(1)."

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#98

In (I think) the first edition of Zumdahl's chemistry textbook, there was a great summary of some of the things they had to do to preserve the statue, and it went beyond just repairing the skin. The wiki article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation-restoration_of_th... ) has a lot of it, but IIRC after they installed stainless steel, at some point they passed electricity through it, which had the effect of ma…

One of the NYT articles at the link mentions the stainless steel. This WaPo article talks about it more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1986/07/02/b... This article suggests that the DC current treatment was to avoid corrosion (also has some nice illustrations of the support framework for the skin): https://copper.org/education/liberty/liberty_reclothed2.php A related blurb just says they built some…

That's fantastic, thank you!

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#99
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, all measurement systems are functionally arbitrary It's not a question whether they are arbitrary, it's a question if they are technically consistent within themselves. The metric system is: Everything is orders of magnitude, powers of ten, throughout all the measurements. Consequently, everything measured by base units of distance and mass follows the same rules: A Watt is 1 Joule per second, which is 1 Newt…

> It's not a question whether they are arbitrary, it's a question if they are technically consistent within themselves. It's important to note that the US does not and has never used the "Imperial System" which didn't even exist before 1826 which is post-revolutionary war. US Customary units evolved around the same time as the Metric system and used names from the Dutch and English systems for historical reasons. The…

> The motivation being global compatibility, not internal consistency.

All the more reason to officially switch to metric. Because as of right now, only 3 countries in the world (US, Liberia and Myanmar) officially use imperial units, while the rest of the world uses the metric system.

> The US was an original signatory of the treaty of the Meter.

So? If I have a gymcard and don't go to the gym, it's not doing me any good.

> It's nice to have but really reads like marketing wank. What matters to people doing work is if they can do their jobs.

Indeed it does. That's why science and engineering are using the metric system. Including NASA btw. Being able to convert measurements easily, and have them correlate with our most common, radix 10, numerical system, is not "marketing wank", it's a built-in advantage.

If I want to figure out what mass of water falls on an area in the metric system, I can do the calculation in my head. If I have to figure out hundredweights per acre, given that X inches of rain fell, I'm gonna need a calculator, a conversion table, and social context to know which kind of "hundredweight" I'm supposed to use.

Oh btw. people "do work" in all these other countries. And guess how they measure things when doing that? Exactly: In meters and kilograms.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#100
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of arbitrariness, note that your "traditional" units are only actually defined in terms of the SI system ("metric" units). Metrication is expensive and although the US is rich it declines to spend the eye-watering sums it would cost to do adequate metrication separately for its own unit system, so the pound is defined as some number of kilograms, the inch is defined as some number of metres and so on. As a r…

The number of layers of arbitrary dont bother me very much. We've metrified our industry (gradually over 50 or so years), dealing the the government is metric, etc. I think we've adopted the metric system in the most important places - I dont think our competitiveness is harmed or helped if I have to buy meat by the KG at the grocery, or the weather forecast comes in celsius or not.

Then why not just officially ditch what is, at this point, a quirky anachronism at best, and a potentially really expensive source of mistakes [1] at worst?

[1]: https://www.simscale.com/blog/nasa-mars-climate-orbiter-metr...

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