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Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

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Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#91

Post by switch007 »

kuboble wrote: post #48
cm2187 wrote: post #41

Whether the UK is part of the EU or not is irrelevant to using english as a mean of communication between europeans. I remember a study from the French ministry of education which estimated for each language, what was the percentage of the EU population, to which it is not a native language, that studied it as a foreign language either in high school or university. German and italian are in the 15-20% range, french a…

My personal hope is that the EU would make a plan to adopt English as the only official language. Now that UK is gone it can't be seen as unfairly promoting one country. I think the example of Switzerland shows that there is no problem if spoken language is different from official language.

I think you’re forgetting Ireland and Malta

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#92

Post by mmarq »

raspo wrote: post #58

As an Italian now living abroad, every time I go back I am horrified by the way Italians mis-use all sorts of English words in many contexts of life... One example: "smart-working". At the beginning of the pandemic, when we all started to "work remotely" or "work from home", Italians decided to call it "Smart Working". The first time I heard this term from a relative I was very confused, I thought it was just young p…

It happens in all languages, I’ve never heard people talking about eating “al fresco” before moving to the UK.

In theory “smart working” doesn’t mean just working remotely, but it implies flexible working patterns as well. Also, it has been used in British English (even though it didn’t become very popular): https://civilservice.blog.gov.uk/2016/01/21/smart-working-th...

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#93

Post by dontupvoteme »

unpopularopp wrote: post #18

Good. Americans are usually not aware of the extent of american cultural imperialism which is basically everywhere, not just in Europe but you can see it very strong here I'm not saying it's bad or good. But I wish we have less Hollywood, less Netflix, less american music, less american videogames, less imported american culture topics etc when actual local music, movies, books, games exist.

Indeed, it's telling when on average the foreign productions on netflix or such are an order of magnitude higher quality than the anglophone ones.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#94

Post by dontupvoteme »

truthsayer123 wrote: post #35
unpopularopp wrote: post #18

Good. Americans are usually not aware of the extent of american cultural imperialism which is basically everywhere, not just in Europe but you can see it very strong here I'm not saying it's bad or good. But I wish we have less Hollywood, less Netflix, less american music, less american videogames, less imported american culture topics etc when actual local music, movies, books, games exist.

Nobody is forcing you to watch them nor comment on this American forum.

It is funny seeing (presumably west) coastal americans take a very milquetoast pro-imperial view of "their country" (insofar as english is a representative weapon of america, despite it having originated ostensibly somewhere else centuries ago) to fight "the europeans"

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#95

Post by ghusto »

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy?

On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No offence meant to the Americans here, but I detest the exportation of American culture to Europe. I don't mean music and films, but rather the way of thinking about the world. I suspect this is where things like these proposals are coming from; it's the pendulum swing reaching too far before it settles in the middle.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#96

Post by [deleted] »

mmarq wrote: post #92
raspo wrote: post #58

As an Italian now living abroad, every time I go back I am horrified by the way Italians mis-use all sorts of English words in many contexts of life... One example: "smart-working". At the beginning of the pandemic, when we all started to "work remotely" or "work from home", Italians decided to call it "Smart Working". The first time I heard this term from a relative I was very confused, I thought it was just young p…

It happens in all languages, I’ve never heard people talking about eating “al fresco” before moving to the UK. In theory “smart working” doesn’t mean just working remotely, but it implies flexible working patterns as well. Also, it has been used in British English (even though it didn’t become very popular): https://civilservice.blog.gov.uk/2016/01/21/smart-working-th...

[deleted]

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#97

Post by dehrmann »

borroka wrote: post #13
alex_suzuki wrote: post #2

Italy really knows how to focus on what’s really important to address challenges like high unemployment and weak economy.

It is a very poor argument and ignores the fact that the lives of people, institutions and countries are not just about (the very important) jobs and economics. I, who have lived in the United States for decades, cringe when English words are used instead of those of my native language to give a sense of respectability to those words. A global culture and a world homogenized in ways of living is a much less interesti…

In college, I took an English/linguistics class called "History of the English Language." One big takeaway from it was that prescriptive languages never work, and pragmatism always wins over purity. You say you "cringe" when hearing English words in the context of your native language. English, too, is packed with loanwords. Espresso (I see you, Italian), taco, kimchi, sauna, schadenfreude, not to mention phrases lifted directly from other languages like "c'est la vie" or "et cetera."

I don't disagree that a homogeneous world is less interesting, but in a world where you can travel between every major city in less than 24 hours, and communication is unified and instantaneous, this is the natural outcome, and government word policing is a losing fight.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#98

Post by mmarq »

pyuser583 wrote: post #85
hunglee2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting observation! I think it's great if local languages and identifies can continue to thrive, but I don't think it can be said that Italian nationalism isn't a thing though - it has explicitly been a thing as the suppression of regional dialects and the 'making of Italians' was a stated objective of Italian nationalists immediately after the unification of Italy. btw this does not make Italy exceptional…

The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. It’s always been touch and go. Garbaldi and Mussolini placed a strong emphasis on “nationalism,” but other leaders were more focused on a building coalitions. Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis shi…

> The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners.

Italian is not a northern but rather a central Italian language.

> Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties?

Movimento Sociale Italiano, was a nationalist neofascist party that became Fratelli d’Italia, the current governing party. FdI gets more votes in the south than in the north. Lega is a weird beast, sometimes anti-southern now nationalist and anti-immigration.

> I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm.

Was Garibaldi trying to annex Algeria and went off course? Your Sicilian family is not well versed in Italian history.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#99

Post by est31 »

lxgr wrote: post #63
unpopularopp wrote: post #18

Good. Americans are usually not aware of the extent of american cultural imperialism which is basically everywhere, not just in Europe but you can see it very strong here I'm not saying it's bad or good. But I wish we have less Hollywood, less Netflix, less american music, less american videogames, less imported american culture topics etc when actual local music, movies, books, games exist.

I enjoy local music, books and games a lot, but legally enforcing "less American culture" seems like a really strange/indirect way of supporting local productions. Why shouldn’t people be allowed to choose what they spend their money and time on? And if you think that there should be more support for their producers to compete with Hollywood budgets: Have you watched the credits of any European film or TV production…

> Also, Netflix has probably done more for both the funding and international distribution of European TV shows than all European streaming services combined.

Note that they also get a lot of subsidies from the local governments to film in their location. They are not doing it for charity.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#100

Post by dominojab »

adventured wrote: post #54
_vbnz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it was shocking here in Stockholm when there were BLM protests in 2020. It's like people are more involved in US politics than their national politics.

Racism is at least as prevalent - and far more out-in-the-open - in Europe than in the US. There should be BLM or equivalent protests all over Europe, frankly. It's shocking how openly racist Europeans are (whether eg Italians about Africans, Germans about anyone, or Europeans routinely about gypsies). Ever gone on Reddit and looked at what Swedes say about refugees and immigrants (post ~2014 or so; in 2015 they were…

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