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Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

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Re: Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

#91

Post by qbasic_forever »

bombolo wrote: post #84
qbasic_forever wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take: package distributors are 'fake jobs' that don't need to exist, or exist only for the make-work of packaging. Tools like flatpak, snap, appimage, containerization, etc. have made the need for adapting software to different distributions unnecessary.

I don't want debian to be like the android app store, where there are thousands apps that work badly and overflow me with ads. I much prefer the f-droid model, of having curated repositories to keep crap outside. Also, I can't understand why people on the internet think that upstream developers are omniscient. They make lots of mistakes and errors. Distribute maintainers fix a lot of things, and send the fixes to the…

There's nothing stopping someone from making a flatpak or other similar tech feed or 'store' that's only the curated apps they deem appropriate for users.

Bugs should be fixed upstream, not kept in distro specific silos. There's no reason why only a packager can fix some upstream issues or become a contributor. On the contrary shipping your app as a universal tech like flatpak means Redhat, Debian, Arch or any other user can use it, develop for it, and send fixes upstream.

Re: Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

#92

Post by NayamAmarshe »

vesinisa wrote: post #10
NayamAmarshe wrote: post #6

Reminder that ZorinOS exists. It's Ubuntu, but better: https://zorin.com/os

I would've appreciated some background how this differs from the next Linux distro, and what's the relation to Ubuntu removing Flatpak?

Some links I'd suggest reading:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2022/01/17/what-...

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/zorinos-16-is-exactly-w...

https://www.zdnet.com/article/zorin-os-puts-on-a-master-clas...

Copy-pasting my comment from reddit:

- Interface is amazing. Possibly the most polished and modern UI in any distro.

- Nvidia drivers provided by default.

- Biggest App store library in any Ubuntu-based distro. Comes with Ubuntu + Zorin + Flatpak + Snap repositories.

- Made for newbies and pros alike.

- Wine pre-installed, so you can even use some Windows programs without doing any extra configuration.

- Has great hardware compatibility and is always on latest LTS kernel.

- Great performance.

- Extremely stable because it's based on Ubuntu.

- Works great for gaming.

- Has extra proprietary drivers pre-installed for example, Intel WiFi chipsets.

- Multiple layouts, Windows like shortcuts.

- Good amount of customization.

- Since it's based on Ubuntu, most articles and tutorials available online also will apply to ZorinOS.

- Did I mention that the UI is very polished?

ZorinOS is a no-brainer choice if you want a 'Just Works™' system that also looks highly polished. Ubuntu's focus is not the user, but corporate. Just compare their home pages and you'll know what I'm talking about. It's ubuntu but better, why would you use Ubuntu ;)

Re: Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

#93

Post by creshal »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #42
creshal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Choosing a distro is basically choosing a DE and package manager these days anyway What distribution doesn't support at least half a dozen desktop environments these days?

>What distribution doesn't support at least half a dozen desktop environments these days? Most usually come out of the box with official support for only 2 DEs. Of course they can theoretically support every one out there if you manually install them.

Usually for all major distributions you get in the official repositories

- Gnome

- KDE

- Xfce

- Cinnamon

- Mate

- LXDE/LXQt

- Several *box stacked and assorted tiling window managers and assorted glue scripts

That's a fairly solid base of "support" even if the distributions don't provide live CDs with any particular setup preinstalled.

The only exception I've seen are the "we took an existing distro, threw away half the repository, patched 2 packages and slapped our own logo on top" wannabe hipster distributions that last an entire two years before folding due to being pointless.

Re: Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

#94

Post by circuit10 »

wongarsu wrote: post #31
bayesian_horse wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are really saying is you want all software developers to publish Debian packages (no such thing as "apt" packages) compatible with your particular Debian distribution, even though they might be using a different Debian based distribution, a completely different altogether, maybe even a different architecture, even though that compatibility isn't their primary concern.

The original model is that software developers don't package their software for distributions at all, at best they provide helper scripts that the distribution maintainers can use to do that. That's why distributions are typically either giant volunteer-run organizations like Debian or companies like RedHat or Canonical.

That works for big important software like Firefox or GCC, but less well for someone’s niche hobby project that maybe 5 or so other people will use

Re: Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

#95

Post by qbasic_forever »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #90
qbasic_forever wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take: package distributors are 'fake jobs' that don't need to exist, or exist only for the make-work of packaging. Tools like flatpak, snap, appimage, containerization, etc. have made the need for adapting software to different distributions unnecessary.

There is a very good and strong use case for a "distribution" of packages working well together. But those packages need to be selected carefully.

I agree but I don't think the software packages themselves should be held back by the available time and attention of packagers. In the new world a packager or distro creator can just pick and choose what flatpaks, snaps, appimage, etc. sources they deem good enough to push to users. They shouldn't be a roadblock in the way of users getting the latest version of software.

Re: Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

#96

Post by h4x0rr »

londons_explore wrote: post #3

Can we go back to just shipping apt packages? They worked fine, and I don't feel like having multiple types of containers and update methods and mounted image file systems really made anyone's life better.

flatpaks have permissions so i'd argue they can lead to better security

Re: Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

#97

Post by circuit10 »

trompetenaccoun wrote: post #41
Taniwha wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah lost a day this week to bloody snaps

Is there a single user who likes snaps?

They’re better than Flatpak for CLI applications I guess since Flatpak doesn’t aim to support those

Is there another option for that than Snap, or Docker which is a bit too complicated to set up? (that’s not rhetorical, I would like to know if there is)

Re: Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

#98

Post by dikei »

minimaul wrote: post #87
dikei wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, `pacman -Syyu` works fine most of the time, except when you use a lot of AUR `devel` packages, which can break because they often do not have strict dependencies definition.

AUR packages are not part of the distribution though, so that's understandable - they're explicitly user contributed packages and are very much "here there be dragons" and "if it breaks, you get to keep both pieces".

Agree

Re: Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

#99

Post by creshal »

dagw wrote: post #83
creshal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ubuntu has a much more aggressive 6 months release cycle, it's not nearly as outdated as Debian sometimes can be.

But that means I have to update my OS and my application when I want a new version instead of just my application. Say what you want about Windows, but I can download and run the latest version of all my applications on Windows 7 without it missing a beat.

I don't think Windows is a good comparison, since major upgrades for it tend to be vastly more invasive than major upgrading the average Linux distribution. Debian 6→7, ten years ago, was a really massive infrastructure upgrade, but ever since it's been pretty smooth sailing. Ubuntu is a bit bumpier, but it's still only on the level of Windows' "major feature upgrades (that totally aren't service packs because we don't want to extend your warranty)" updates that Windows 10 and newer get every 6 months.

And Windows 7 is extremely old and only works with new software because, and as long as, developers go the extra mile to make their software work with its old APIs. Valve recently announced that they'll drop support for it next year, and other companies will follow soon. It's not too much different from the situation of, say, Debian Oldstable or Ubuntu LTS: Outdated, but popular enough that people tend to put in the effort anyway.

Re: Ubuntu stops shipping Flatpak by default

#100

Post by creshal »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #91
bombolo wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want debian to be like the android app store, where there are thousands apps that work badly and overflow me with ads. I much prefer the f-droid model, of having curated repositories to keep crap outside. Also, I can't understand why people on the internet think that upstream developers are omniscient. They make lots of mistakes and errors. Distribute maintainers fix a lot of things, and send the fixes to the…

There's nothing stopping someone from making a flatpak or other similar tech feed or 'store' that's only the curated apps they deem appropriate for users. Bugs should be fixed upstream, not kept in distro specific silos. There's no reason why only a packager can fix some upstream issues or become a contributor. On the contrary shipping your app as a universal tech like flatpak means Redhat, Debian, Arch or any other…

The strawman sounds compelling on the surface, but that's not what happens in practice: Bug fixes are sent upstream by all relevant distributions, and they regularly cooperate with each other directly, as well as upstream. The "new world" of users of all distributions working together has been reality for the past 20+ years.
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