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SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

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Re: SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not raising short rates would increase inflation Proxy war in eastern Europe, with USA dumping big $ there, is causing price rises.

How does that domestic impact service sector wages

Large debt issuance to fund federal government deficit spending causes dollar to devalue. This affects price of labor paid in dollars.

Re: SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

#92

Pardon my ignorance, but why would VC backed companies not have CFOs and general VC advice against putting all or even a majority of their funds in a single bank? Why would they not split it among several mid to large sized banks? [Edited for typo]

What you're referring to is called "treasury management". Roku is not a VC backed startup (it's a public traded company) and they held nearly $500M in cash in SVB (idiots).[0]

HN'rs love to criticize financial analysts, but this is precisely the thing that they would typically look at (whether they actually did on Roku is another question) when analyzing the overall value of a business. Meaning, they don't just look at the company's financials, but also the management team, their performance, their controls, processes, etc. (and arguably their treasury management). We also love to criticize MBAs and finance people, but this is exactly the type of thing that is optimized with experienced business/finance professionals.

You might be thinking "how on earth does X big company operate this way?". The same way a company like Equifax who literally provides all of its FICO scoring via computers, was running outdated Java components that led to a serious ransomware hack.

[0] - https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/10/business/roku-svb-cash/index....

Re: SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

#93
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment, but it's not correct that price dumping is illegal for physical products. Trade treaties and WTO rules cover dumping in international trade for obvious reasons, but to my knowledge, there's no law in the major western jurisdictions covering domestic dumping.

Domestic dumping may be prohibited as predatory pricing under anti-trust, depending on the circumstances, including the pricer needing to have market power.

Right, but there is zero differentiation there between physical and virtual products. GP implied that there is some sort of protection against price dumping of physical products that doesn't exist for virtual products.

Re: SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

#94
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment, but it's not correct that price dumping is illegal for physical products. Trade treaties and WTO rules cover dumping in international trade for obvious reasons, but to my knowledge, there's no law in the major western jurisdictions covering domestic dumping.

https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui... notes that there are dumping restrictions, but that courts rarely find firms in violation. Asking ChatGPT "What is the case law around single-firm predatory pricing?" provides a number of examples, including the tests used by various Western court systems. (Though do note that ChatGPT is not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice!)

Correct, anti-trust law can introduce a lot of rules prohibiting actions that would be fine if it weren't for the monopolistic position of the actor. But as mentioned in the other comment, there's no differentiation there between physical and virtual products.

Re: SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation was surging well before the Ukraine invasion.

The virus lockdowns ended and manufacturing supply chains have been clearing. Please tell us why price increases are continuing, instead of dramatically dropping.

Because we printed trillions of dollars and haven’t come close to removing all that excess stimulus yet - nor have any supply side constraints that existed prior to Covid been removed.

Re: SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

#96
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO? Overnight term rates should have been zero from 2020 to about July of 2021, then allowed to rise by 0.25 per month to perhaps about 3.5%. Long-term rates should have been left to float with the market, pricing in the expected risk of inflation. Not that my opinion matters, since I wasn't in charge.

That still leads to losses on long term treasuries. That's what it means to raise rates.

Yes, of course it does. But there are losses, and then there are losses. 10-year yields going from 1.56% in 2021 to 4% in 2023 is equivalent to a price drop of 17% (given maturity in 2031). If 10-year yields had only been, say, 3% in 2021 before rising to 4%, the bond price drop would have been closer to 7%.

Re: SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

#97

The whole idea of venture capital comes from the broken taxation model. The people who actually produce things, you know doing the work and have knowledge how to do something are burdened with heavy taxation, because years ago, when companies had high headcount, it was a way to make companies pay taxes. Now that everything gets offshored, including work, that model doesn't work anymore, but politicians for known reas…

> because years ago, when companies had high headcount, it was a way to make companies pay taxes. What does this mean? Assuming you are referring to earned income tax, I do not understand how income tax is a way to make companies pay tax.

I can take a stab. I imagine, if everything else stayed the same (rent, food etc) and the government raised income tax, companies would be forced to pay more wages to cover the gap. IE most of the increase would come out of the employer's pocket, because there is a minimum they ultimately must pay in wages in order for workers to afford rent food etc, and if the minimum is not met, why bother working?

Re: SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

#98
post #46

“There are enough zombie companies with frothy valuations that need restructuring, price discovery and of course re-tooling of their business models to a world of tighter credit, subdued revenue and higher rates,” SVB has nothing to do with that problem. It's about higher interest rates. The end of free money for stupid stuff. Now companies have to make money. So who's going down? TSLA, UBER, and RBLX already made it…

Scale AI and Cruise?

Re: SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

#99
post #8

Play bank run games, win bank run prizes. Really, I don't love the regulatory arbitrage played by SVB and unhedged duration risk, nor the moral hazard created by the bailout, nor the somewhat bizarre attitude of companies holding huge $100Ms of uninsured deposits earning minimal interest (why have more than 1 months cash flow?), but really this was a bank run pure and simple. When you have to plan to lose >20% of you…

...really this was a bank run pure and simple I've been around and around on this question. Insolvent or illiquid, illiquid or Insolvent... etc. It was solvent on paper, by what it had to record on it's books. But it was insolvent by mark-to-market (which it didn't have to use but which the sophisticated but not-that-sophisticated investors, say venture capitalists, would assume is the reality). But hey, you could sa…

> which it didn't have to use but which the sophisticated but not-that-sophisticated investors, say venture capitalists, would assume is the reality

It seems like you're implying that a truly sophisticated investor would view this differently, but I don't see how. By all indications, the MTM price was economically correct--bid/ask spreads and trading volumes were normal, and the price was very close to what a simple NPV model would predict. There are cases where the market price is economically wrong (in a "liquidity crisis", "fire sale", etc.), but there's no evidence of that here.

Managers and shareholders of the SVB and other banks with similar losses have strong self-interest in arguing otherwise, and they're doing so quite successfully. It's particularly easy to confuse people about interest rate risk, since it's so abstract--you're still getting the same future cash flows, and it's hard to explain why they're less valuable without a concept of NPV or other bond math, which relatively few people understand. The economic loss is just as real as with any other risk though, regardless of what the accounting says.

Re: SVB collapse could mean a $500B venture capital ‘haircut’

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nor the moral hazard created by the bailout There was no moral hazard created because bank shareholder equity got zeroed out. Bank management and shareholders were not protected against the 'find out' phase.

People keep saying this, but I don't understand why they don't see the issue. Yes, shareholders got zeroed out of their SVB shares. But since there was no risk to playing with depositors money besides losing the business, which can fail in any number of other ways as well, there is no deterrent to taking on the large risk. The optimal strategy to beat the competition is to edge toward more risk. And since you can get…

This is probably less true than you think. If SVB's assets had been anything other than treasuries, I would agree. But liquidating their assets would almost certainly move all of those to a willing buyer. It is everything else that is problematic and likely nobody wants to buy.
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