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You can't tell people anything (2004)

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Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#91

Post by jongjong »

_yb2s wrote: post #31
jongjong wrote: post #26

This article resonates with me. I think it may also explain why some very smart people are not appreciated; they say things which are far too nuanced for most people to understand; others often won't understand the depth of the argument being made. Most people assume that because everyone is at a similar rank and salary range within a company (or in the industry), they are all operating at the same level and communic…

I think you are correct, but this just doesn't feel right, I can't quite put my finger on why. It's almost like people categorically reject the possibility of greater levels of nuance existing. If they didn't they'd be looking for it carefully, because that is always where deeper insight comes in, right? If you look at, for example, popular news and political discourse- it is lacking nuance to the point where it's me…

Could it be because a lot of big, important decisions by influential people are often made based on superficial factors (or gut feelings) and this skews outcomes? I guess sometimes dumb ideas do seem to win; especially in the short term. "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

I think outside of markets and finance, there are areas where nuanced thinking delivers results, even if it's not necessarily rewarded appropriately by management. In tech, it might lead to a feature being implemented in a way which some users will really appreciate (without understanding why).

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#92

Post by didgetmaster »

>Alas, many things really must be experienced to be understood. We didn’t have much of an experience to deliver to them though — after all, the whole point of all this evangelizing was to get people to give us money to pay for developing the software in the first place! But someone who’s spent even 10 minutes using the Web would never think to ask some of the questions we got asked.

THIS! I think most people can relate to this concept if they ever tried to explain something completely new to someone else. I have struggled with this many times with my own project.

I have a new kind of data management system that is much different than other systems. I can try to explain it to others in a personal or a public setting. I have written blogs, whitepapers, and other documentation. I have a set of demo videos that are each less than 10 minutes. It is still very, very difficult to get people to understand what I am building.

So far only a few people have taken the chance to really 'experience it' by downloading the software and using it to do something useful that they need. I have some really good beta sites that are enthusiastic about it once they get that 'Aha moment'.

It will take a lot more work before the masses 'get it' like the average teenage now 'gets' the Internet.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#93

Post by gregw134 »

didgetmaster wrote: post #92

>Alas, many things really must be experienced to be understood. We didn’t have much of an experience to deliver to them though — after all, the whole point of all this evangelizing was to get people to give us money to pay for developing the software in the first place! But someone who’s spent even 10 minutes using the Web would never think to ask some of the questions we got asked. THIS! I think most people can rela…

Can you add a link?

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#94

Post by noduerme »

On a side note, this:

>> another thing I’ve learned is to pay attention to things I find myself saying; that way I’ll know what I really think

is what led to Nixon leaving office.

Recordings of yourself haven't gotten any more private since he did that in the Oval Office... to preserve his thoughts and, presumably, to document what he really thought.

If you're not a total alcoholic, you'll find your thoughts in similar situations are coincident with your previous thoughts, to the point of being indistinguishable. You probably shouldn't actually write them all down or record them. In fact, if you have to record them to remember them (that they might never recur) then they probably aren't firm enough to be worth going back to.

And if, like me, you are an alcoholic, you can virtually depend on saying the same things over and over.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#95

Post by nerpderp82 »

peppermint_gum wrote: post #50
nerpderp82 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xanadu is basically the web.

It is nothing like the web. The web is unstructured, Xanadu isn't. The web supports all kinds of content, Xanadu is stricly textual. Xanadu documents are immutable. Xanadu is integrated with a payment system and everything is pay-per-view. Xanadu has been worked on for more than 50 years and there's still no useful demo. I know HN has this weird custom to assume without evidence that all old failed technologies were…

Ok, "Xanadu is the NYT viewed over elinks while logged in". My comment was reductionist, but it conveyed the idea in 5 words.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#96

Post by jrumbut »

crdrost wrote: post #64
zsz wrote: post #51

> I’m totally convinced that a new idea or a new plan or a new technique is never really understood when you just explain it. > People will often think they understand, and they’ll say they understand, but then their actions show that it just ain’t so. Isn't this the very reason that homework assignments exist? When I was in college, it took me two years to realize that I could have easily gotten As and Bs (instead o…

Yes. Well, examples. Good homework assignments give you some examples to sit in your head, not all homework assignments are good though. The way I like to tell people this is, you know that thing where you want to take your kids or your students and make sure that they don't have to go through the same pain that you did to learn what you had learned? That feeling? If you have ever had that feeling you must understand…

I strongly agree with your main point that sometimes valuable learning is painful. I've found a lot of mathematics is painful beyond "this is frustrating and difficult," but in a more profound way.

I would say though, about abstractions, I'm not sure hot stove is an abstraction. I think hot is an abstraction that allows you to apply the lesson you learned on the stove to the toaster and the coffee maker and all the other hot appliances you encounter.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#97

Post by fenomas »

_yb2s wrote: post #36

This puts to clear words a nagging sensation I've had my whole life, that I (also) tried to tell other people but couldn't. Talking just doesn't work as well as people think it does. It seems so obvious once you start noticing, but almost nobody notices this. People are either just repeating memes each other basically already know, or else are talking past each other. When I overhear people having a conversation, alm…

I think you've made TFA's point better than TFA does. "Talking doesn't work as well as people think" is going to be stuck in my head for a while.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#99

Post by maCDzP »

jrumbut wrote: post #96
crdrost wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Well, examples. Good homework assignments give you some examples to sit in your head, not all homework assignments are good though. The way I like to tell people this is, you know that thing where you want to take your kids or your students and make sure that they don't have to go through the same pain that you did to learn what you had learned? That feeling? If you have ever had that feeling you must understand…

I strongly agree with your main point that sometimes valuable learning is painful. I've found a lot of mathematics is painful beyond "this is frustrating and difficult," but in a more profound way. I would say though, about abstractions, I'm not sure hot stove is an abstraction. I think hot is an abstraction that allows you to apply the lesson you learned on the stove to the toaster and the coffee maker and all the o…

If you wouldn’t mind, could you elaborate your point about mathematical being painful?

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#100

Post by jrumbut »

maCDzP wrote: post #99
jrumbut wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly agree with your main point that sometimes valuable learning is painful. I've found a lot of mathematics is painful beyond "this is frustrating and difficult," but in a more profound way. I would say though, about abstractions, I'm not sure hot stove is an abstraction. I think hot is an abstraction that allows you to apply the lesson you learned on the stove to the toaster and the coffee maker and all the o…

If you wouldn’t mind, could you elaborate your point about mathematical being painful?

I don't have a great way to put it in words, but the intuition is that you are putting enormous mental energy into something that doesn't give anything back. Being able to solve heat equations doesn't make you warm.

Other subjects are the same, obviously, but when writing a history essay you can BS and not think too hard and skate by with a C. With a math problem, if it's difficult for you, you need to really put your whole self into solving it to make any progress at all. And I think that can be painful, in a certain way.

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