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Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

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Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#91

Post by mardifoufs »

chucksmash wrote: post #47
Hamuko wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the source for that? Doesn't sound right when I've seen claims such as "nearly 72% of Americans live in or close to the city where they grew up" [1] and "the typical adult lives only 18 miles from his or her mother" [2]. [1] https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/what-percentage-of-... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/12/24/upshot/24up-f...

The irony of having this discussion on a site run by people who pay potential founders to move across the continent for a couple of months.

Where's the irony? Do you think HN is a good representation of the US population as a whole?

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#92

Post by TheCoelacanth »

dataflow wrote: post #88
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Property owners benefit more from local tax spending than anyone else. Why shouldn't they pay for it? We already subsidize home ownership by quite a bit. We don't need to subsidize it more.

> Property owners benefit more from local tax spending than anyone else. Why shouldn't they pay for it? Couldn't you use the same argument to say that poor people should pay more in taxes because they benefit more from it?

That's nonsense. The richest people benefit the most from having a stable government with well-funded police protecting their property.

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#93

Post by chucksmash »

mardifoufs wrote: post #91
chucksmash wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony of having this discussion on a site run by people who pay potential founders to move across the continent for a couple of months.

Where's the irony? Do you think HN is a good representation of the US population as a whole?

Assuming you are posting in good faith, the irony to me is that this whole discussion is even happening, stemming from the post:

> Where the hell are people "moving across the continent every few years"?

Because the answer is right here, on this very website. They are asking us* to prove our existence.

Perhaps it'd be more correct to call it incongruity. Perhaps also more correct to have replied directly to the "Where the hell...?" comment as opposed to this one. I hope this isn't a segue into an "Alanis Morrissette isn't ironic" internet conversation.

* - some of us

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#94

Post by dataflow »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #92
dataflow wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Property owners benefit more from local tax spending than anyone else. Why shouldn't they pay for it? Couldn't you use the same argument to say that poor people should pay more in taxes because they benefit more from it?

That's nonsense. The richest people benefit the most from having a stable government with well-funded police protecting their property.

It's not nonsense, you just looked at the extreme case on the other side. You can try to make arguments like that for the "richest" people, but what about everyone else? Someone making $1 below the Medicaid income limit should pay a ton more in taxes than someone making $1 above it because they get back a lot more in return?

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#97

Post by sohtym »

jltsiren wrote: post #70
sohtym wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Contrast with a society where the average education might be lower, less people having a stable job in a slow labor market, and if you lose your job there is no safety net. Educational attainment in the Nordic countries isn't actually that good. It might have been at one point. These days I think it sometimes looks good because some statistics count having any experience at higher levels, which having cost-free edu…

You should look at the statistics more carefully. Educational attainment means the highest degree – those with a master's degree are not included in the numbers for bachelor's degrees. Nordic countries traditionally had a system where master's (or equivalent) was the primary undergraduate degree in proper universities (or equivalent).

I've added the Bachelor's, Master's and Doctoral degrees. Out of 38 countries that puts Iceland and Finland in 9th and 10th. And Denmark, Sweden and Norway at 16th, 17th and 19th. So primarily Finland redeems itself. (Iceland maybe not so relevant as it is tiny). The rest are still slightly above the middle. Considering these are among wealthy countries it maybe isn't bad. But for being smaller countries with decent resource and high taxes that are also deindustrializing I wouldn't say it is great.

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#98

Post by TheCoelacanth »

dataflow wrote: post #94
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nonsense. The richest people benefit the most from having a stable government with well-funded police protecting their property.

It's not nonsense, you just looked at the extreme case on the other side. You can try to make arguments like that for the "richest" people, but what about everyone else? Someone making $1 below the Medicaid income limit should pay a ton more in taxes than someone making $1 above it because they get back a lot more in return?

If they're benefiting so much, why are they poor? Clearly wealthier people are getting more benefit.

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#99

Post by jltsiren »

sohtym wrote: post #97
jltsiren wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should look at the statistics more carefully. Educational attainment means the highest degree – those with a master's degree are not included in the numbers for bachelor's degrees. Nordic countries traditionally had a system where master's (or equivalent) was the primary undergraduate degree in proper universities (or equivalent).

I've added the Bachelor's, Master's and Doctoral degrees. Out of 38 countries that puts Iceland and Finland in 9th and 10th. And Denmark, Sweden and Norway at 16th, 17th and 19th. So primarily Finland redeems itself. (Iceland maybe not so relevant as it is tiny). The rest are still slightly above the middle. Considering these are among wealthy countries it maybe isn't bad. But for being smaller countries with decent…

It's been a decade since I was actually interested in educational policy and read the reports carefully. From what I remember, Nordic countries have long had higher educational attainment than most EU/OECD countries. In particular, the educational attainment that made people more likely to get a mortgage was higher (relative to peer countries) than it currently is.

At least in Finland, the educational attainment peaked with the people born in the late 70s. As higher education continues to grow in many (most?) peer countries, young Finns are no longer particularly highly educated, which may become a problem in the future.

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#100

Post by toast0 »

robomartin wrote: post #44
cronin101 wrote: post #6

This is such a non-story, mainly driven by the fact that home ownership in Nordic countries is ubiquitous (80% of Norwegians OWN their primary dwelling) combined with the high medium incomes resulting in those houses being quite expensive. I’d really recommend not trying to draw any deeper conclusions from this data. Edit: by “own” I mean “have a non-paid off mortgage”, the tax on net wealth here actually disincentiv…

> 80% of Norwegians OWN their primary dwelling I see your clarification. Question: In Norway, if you pay-off your mortgage, do you still owe annual taxes on your property? If so, how much? What happens if you don't pay property taxes? One of the things that has always bothered me about home "ownership" is that, from my perspective, at least in the US, you never really own your home. You can pay off your mortgage, of…

If all 50 US states came up with the same thing, it's probably hard to do significantly better.

Many states have some method of limiting increases, which helps you budget for the future costs, as long as the rules don't change. Some states, I think Nevada is one, have a program where you can pay an actuarial estimate and be set for the rest of your life as long as you don't move. Many states have programs where you can defer property tax payments until you move or die. Many also have programs specifically to low income seniors and people with disabilities.

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