This is clear indication that printer is on its way out as a tool …
HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges
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Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ideally, and by that I mean the average consumer is well-informed in every product they purchase, yes. But the average customer really doesn't know any better. You can't expect people to know an alternative exists when and unregulated market will always promote marketing over quality. >I haven't bought one for about 20 years. Just the fact that you are commenting on HN shows that you aren't the average consumer when…
> unregulated market There is no such thing as an unregulated market. The only meaningful difference is between a free market--a market that is regulated solely by the voluntary choices of market participants--and a non-free market--which is at least to some degree also regulated by rules dictated and enforced by entities who are not market participants (the most common such entities, of course, being governments). B…
>There is no such thing as an unregulated market
Something something semantics... something something I'm not a native English speaker something something... I will use the correct definitions from now on though, so thanks for correcting.
>No, a market in which consumers are either unable to perceive quality, or are unwilling to take the time to do so (possibly for rational reasons such as the lack of time or the product being so cheap that it's not worth the effort) will always promote marketing over quality.
And as I said, ideally this wouldn't be the case. However, we are living in the real world where every statement in this sentence is unfortunately the case.
>all that is really happening is that the biggest players are getting further entrenched because the cost of regulatory compliance shuts out potential competitors.
While this may be true with some regulations, in this specific example it is the exact opposite. A fresh company with little capital won't be able to afford a razor and blades model the same way a giant company like HP can. An outside regulation that protects the consumers' interests will serve to make the playing field more even, giving the new company higher chances of actually succeeding. It reduces the risk of startups, because with correct rules higher quality/cost ratio guarantees higher success.
>it means consumers make the choice of whether or not to be sheep, and take the consequences
That only works if consumers actually know what the consequences are. As I said, there are probably countless purchasing decisions that you and I make that we don't even know are dumb. Everyone thinks they know the best for themselves until they find out their knowledge is negligible compared to what they don't know.
Voting with your wallet doesn't work when the default for "not voting" is "I agree" and people don't care about voting.
All of the achievements of humanity comes from collaborative effort, whether it be cumulative knowledge, joining of powers or protecting each-other's interests. Total individuality would only end up with the absolute domination of first-movers: people who managed to leave individuality behind and work as a group. The best way we currently have to avoid this is to have a democratic, all inclusive government that decides what rules we should set and follow.
Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges
#93For those of you who haven't already, I highly recommend just biting the bullet and switching from HP to Brother for your home printing needs. I was a HP customer for decades . I had models going back to perforated paper dot-matrix printers. Finally last year I had a down-and-out fight to get my HP to do a basic task, and I bit the bullet and ordered a Brother at the recommendation of my friend. My mfc-l3750cdw Broth…
Does this open up the space for a "framework laptop" like company to open up? For "open" printers? If yes, what other product categories is this applicable?
If the market weren’t in decline, maybe. But to pipedream a little:
A standardized control board (imagine if it were something like an RPi), with modular carriage (available in several sizes, including capable of 11x17” or A3), with changeable print heads (CMYK, or just a massive black, or hell, pen plotter).
Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Just once, I would like to see an AMA by someone who was directly involved in creating a user-hostile feature We don't need an AMA, we already know the answer. Money. The company exists to make money. The fact that it also creates printers is a side effect, not its primary purpose. Once you look at it in this way, there's nothing confusing about user hostile features. They exist to further the primary purpose of th…
The thing is you'd expect companies should also compete to remove such anti-features in order to claim market share from competitors. It's strange how rare that is.
People don't care. They talk about caring, but when push comes to shove 90% of consumers will buy whatever is cheapest at that moment. If your $200 printer that will let you use whatever ink and whatever cartridge you want is competing with a $189 HP printer that will lock you in to its nonsense, HP is going to eat your lunch all day every day.
Because the simple fact of the matter is that if people did care, what you're describing is exactly what would happen. HP (or someone else) would do something like this, a competitor would start buying ads talking about their open source ink cartridges and HP would start losing market share.
Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges
#95For those of you who haven't already, I highly recommend just biting the bullet and switching from HP to Brother for your home printing needs. I was a HP customer for decades . I had models going back to perforated paper dot-matrix printers. Finally last year I had a down-and-out fight to get my HP to do a basic task, and I bit the bullet and ordered a Brother at the recommendation of my friend. My mfc-l3750cdw Broth…
Been with a laser Brothers for 10 years. Switched to a newer one 5 years ago but it’s only because I needed the wifi feature. Works great, no bullshit update software, stays connected to my wifi, never had to fight drivers or anything to get a new Mac connected to it.
It just works.
Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges
#96What I find notable whenever something like this is in the news, is that these user-hostile features don't just manifest through abiogenesis, or spontaneous generation. User-hostile features are created by people. Just once, I would like to see an AMA by someone who was directly involved in creating a user-hostile feature - whether it's locking down printers or any of the countless other examples that come up on a we…
I’ve seen these kinds of decisions being made. They believe they’re worth it, their product is good enough to have a premium total ownership cost. They believe businesses want OEM. They believe they’re preventing consumers from making expensive mistakes. They believe they need to shut out low cost market entrants that begin with a supplemental product. By believe I mean that’s what their gut tells them, and their dat…
> They believe they’re preventing consumers from making expensive mistakes.
this is by far the easiest one to trick yourself into believing. Average consumers are pretty dumb and if only you can protect them then it's a win-win!
Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges
#97I've got an Epson Ecotank ET-7750 and really like it. (I'm kind of partial to wide format printers because schematics printed on them are easier on the eyes).
That said, a really interesting startup would be an open source inkjet printer. (All the necessary patents have expired ones that are current revolve mostly around cartridges or cleaning systems). I suspect it is a kind of niche market as my kids tell me that "nobody prints things, we have it on our phone!" which I kind of understand, but point out you don't need multiple monitors to do code development if you have listing printed out :-).
Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The best way to regulate it is for people to stop buying HP printers. And to also outlaw those practices. Some things just shouldn't be left to market forces.
> Some things just shouldn't be left to market forces. No things should be left to government regulators. They make things worse, not better. Regulatory capture is a thing. I'm sure HP would love it if government regulation entered this arena; sure, they might have to pay some costs of compliance, but their competitors, who don't have as deep pockets as they do, will be hurt worse than they are--meaning their market…
>No things should be left to government regulators.
I really can't understand this point of view. If one supports the existence of any law, including things making murder illegal, this view becomes inconsistent. Why is outside regulation of our daily lives okay but market isn't? If one thinks there should be no laws, no governments and we should live in complete anarchy, you are still wrong, but at least they are consistent.
Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am amazed no one talks about older HPs. I had a 4 with like 5million pages put through it, worked great. I am on a 4300DN now, in my house, got it used. Great printer. I would never buy any of their new stuff. My gosh, HP what happened? You used to make great test equipment. Then great calculators. Then great printers. Now, what? What do you do? Oh, I forgot, you give the customer a printer and hold them hostage. I…
I had a HP LaserJet 4L back in the very early 90s, which I used with my Amiga. It was amazing. Still regret not taking it with me as I crossed the continents. I bought it with my own money from my newspaper delivery job when in high school, along with a legitimate copy of Pagestream. The quality and value / advantage I got out of this for my school and later university work was remarkable, just about no-one else (at…
>Still regret not taking it with me as I crossed the continents.
It probably wouldn't have worked on other continents due to different voltage and frequency. You'd need a huge and expensive adapter (laser printers use a LOT of power when printing). Back in the 90s, they didn't have adapters that could convert frequency.
Generally, it's best to leave high-power appliances (or sell on Ebay) when you move between continents and buy new stuff at your new home.
Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Some things just shouldn't be left to market forces. No things should be left to government regulators. They make things worse, not better. Regulatory capture is a thing. I'm sure HP would love it if government regulation entered this arena; sure, they might have to pay some costs of compliance, but their competitors, who don't have as deep pockets as they do, will be hurt worse than they are--meaning their market…
You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. Government is not intrinsically bad. Regulations have achieved many good things. Just because there is corruption and abuses of power doesn't mean society should refrain from employing regulatory measures through their representatives. Healthy markets exist, in part, because of regulatory action, not in spite of it.
And in a democracy, you can vote the government out. With a complete monopoly in a totally free market with no regulation, what can you do? Vote with your wallet even if it means you die from starvation? The end game is either complete extinction of humanity or anyone outside the monopoly becoming a slave for it.