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When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

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Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#91

Post by ceol »

mangodrunk wrote: post #85
ceol wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, nothing can ever exist without some way to measure it, yet we know of things like emotions and attractiveness. Would you then say that "hatred" or "love" cannot exist because there isn't a hatred/love-measuring machine? Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. I don't have any experience with higher mathematics, but let's take programming. Would the existence of a women-centric…

Your examples are things that can be measured. Also, if you don't need evidence, then I can say anything.

I have plenty of evidence in the form of experience by women. I don't have a "discrimination-measuring machine", though. You'd be hard-pressed to find one of those.

I know this isn't what a lot of HNers like to hear, but discrimination exists whether you can measure it with a ruler or not. This is one of those things where you have to piece together anecdotal evidence with an empirical lack of women to get the answer.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#92

Post by mangodrunk »

Craiggybear wrote: post #11

I don't know. Women have always coded. I was taught assembler (my first programming job) by a woman. They have always been there (admittedly in smaller numbers then men) but they have always struck me as being excellent coders. We have women like Ada Lovelace and Grace Murray Hopper as fine computing minds to emulate and admire. Women have always been able to take to coding in my experience and be first class at it.…

Don't include Ada with Hopper as Ada didn't really contribute anything and she is incorrectly considered the first programmer. Hopper actually did something and she did influence the field.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#93

Post by mangodrunk »

ceol wrote: post #86
lrhot9 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd agree that bringing in a different perspective helps a brand or profession appeal to a wider audience. What's not apparent is that diversity fuels innovation. They're different statements.

I believe innovation is the next logical step to widening your appeal. You make new and interesting advances when the work you're doing is for a different type of person or project.

How are women different?

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#95

Post by Cushman »

kd1221 wrote: post #90
Cushman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point-- it is about gender. Women don't want to work with, and especially learn from, men because they are afraid that the man will not know how to speak to them as an equal. They're afraid he'll hide his discomfort behind jargon, and that he will be unable to be nice without being patronizing. Heaven forfend that this man, like many highly technical people, is socially awkward in general! In that…

It's not about gender. From your point of view it's about character weakness. A woman has bad experiences with men, so she should be trained to seek haven among women? If she wants to get a mortgage, should she do so only through a female mortgage broker? If she wants to buy a car, does it have to be sold to her by a woman? Or more generally does she need to attend a women-only class that teaches her to negotiate wit…

Character weakness? In whom? In the men who populate male-dominated fields who are incapable of treating women as equals, or in the women who avoid communities where they are not treated as equals?

Think carefully.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#96

Post by lrhot9 »

ceol wrote: post #86
lrhot9 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd agree that bringing in a different perspective helps a brand or profession appeal to a wider audience. What's not apparent is that diversity fuels innovation. They're different statements.

I believe innovation is the next logical step to widening your appeal. You make new and interesting advances when the work you're doing is for a different type of person or project.

I'm not sure what you're saying, and even less sure of how it relates to the question at hand.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#97

Post by vectorpush »

Amazon.com will sell you many great books regardless of gender. Github.com will let you study quality code regardless of gender. Codeacademy.com will teach you some fundamentals regardless of gender. Google.com permits queries for all genders.

Are sexism and discrimination real problems? I think they are. I also think programs like Ladies Learn Code are important and encouraging, but there are no powerful men or fumbling neckbeards preventing women from accessing the knowledge that would empower them as developers.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#98

Post by kd1221 »

Cushman wrote: post #95
kd1221 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about gender. From your point of view it's about character weakness. A woman has bad experiences with men, so she should be trained to seek haven among women? If she wants to get a mortgage, should she do so only through a female mortgage broker? If she wants to buy a car, does it have to be sold to her by a woman? Or more generally does she need to attend a women-only class that teaches her to negotiate wit…

Character weakness? In whom? In the men who populate male-dominated fields who are incapable of treating women as equals, or in the women who avoid communities where they are not treated as equals? Think carefully.

By your description it's both. But exculpating one party and relegating them to gender-biased solutions is not a solution at all.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#99

Post by lrhot9 »

ceol wrote: post #91
mangodrunk wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your examples are things that can be measured. Also, if you don't need evidence, then I can say anything.

I have plenty of evidence in the form of experience by women. I don't have a "discrimination-measuring machine", though. You'd be hard-pressed to find one of those. I know this isn't what a lot of HNers like to hear, but discrimination exists whether you can measure it with a ruler or not. This is one of those things where you have to piece together anecdotal evidence with an empirical lack of women to get the answer…

Is discrimination the only possible explanation for the empirical lack of women?

If you're sure it is, and you're actually interested in these questions, investigating discrimination in tech when you could be investigating discrimination in higher mathematics is like studying swedish-norwegian racism when you could be studying black-white racism.

You don't need personal experience, just casually google it for a while and report your findings.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#100

Post by nahname »

lizzard wrote: post #51
akoumjian wrote: post #19

What I find interesting is that "tech jargon" is listed as the number one reason these women feared getting involved in the technical side of there businesses. It is not as though men are born knowing this jargon; they spend both work and free time learning it as a part of their interests. I know this is an old question, but how are we raising our young women to shy away from these things? Why is it acceptable to let…

Why? Because misogyny is a tool that can be wielded in many directions. And it gets wielded to defend privilege and power. Once a field is defined as powerful, part of an elite, girls often are driven out of it as that field or interest is redefined to be a male thing. Boys, and girls too, ostracize and mock girls who are "into computers" because they are going outside a gender norm. If you think this doesn't still h…

You are confused if you think it is just girls who are ostracized for being "into computers". I'd agree that it may be worse for girls, but I would explain that being due to girls having a much larger propensity to emotional hurt one another than boys.
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