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China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

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Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#91

Post by clouddrover »

2devnull wrote: post #89
clouddrover wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukrainians won't do the capitulation, submission, or subjugation you want from them. They do not share your nihilism. You need to recalibrate your sloppy thinking.

The war would be over if it weren’t for American funding. You think Ukraine will win? Ukraine is nothing except what American war hawks pay it to be, a surrogate army fighting a war funded by American dollars, using American weapons, fighting against America’s enemy. If you think Putin invaded because he wanted to get his hands on Ukrainian resources you’re a fool. This is America and NATO’s war, being fought for our…

Wow. You truly are a worm ready to lick the boots of the next authoritarian to come along. How degrading.

Very fortunately for Ukraine, Ukrainians have more self respect.

And that's the difference. The choice is between the total nihilism of Russia versus the meliorism of Ukraine.

Ukraine is the better choice.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#92

Post by yogthos »

mopsi wrote: post #86
yogthos wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again, both parties represent the interests of the ruling class in American society which is the capital owning class. This is precisely what the study shows. This has absolutely nothing to do with democrats or republicans. The division in American society is between people whose primary source of income is their capital and those whose primary source of income is their labour.

There's no monolithic "ruling class" that both major parties serve equally, and nor did the article claim anything like that. Instead, there is a huge patchwork of constantly shifting interest groups who are looking for suitable candidates to support, and candidates who are tweaking their platforms to appeal to as many groups as possible. Why would, for example, Fortune 500 companies spend a dime on elections if both…

The division in society is between the classes of people who live off their capital and people who live off their labour. These two groups of people have contradictory interests. People who own capital want to pay workers as little as possible and provide them with as few benefits as possible in order to maximize their profits. Meanwhile, the workers want to get compensated as much as possible, to get the best benefits they can, and to have time off. This is the class contradiction of the capitalist society.

In capitalist society, providing it develops under the most favorable conditions, we have a more or less complete democracy in the democratic republic. But this democracy is always hemmed in by the narrow limits set by capitalist exploitation and consequently always remains, in effect, a democracy for the minority, only for the propertied classes, only for the rich. Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in the ancient Greek republics: freedom for the slave owners. Owing to the conditions of capitalist exploitation, the modern wage slaves are so crushed by want and poverty that “they cannot be bothered with democracy,” “cannot be bothered with politics”; in the ordinary, peaceful course of events, the majority of the population is debarred from participation in public and political life.

And this is precisely what the analysis of US government policy shows. US has a government by the rich and for the rich.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#93

Post by yogthos »

fspeech wrote: post #63
yogthos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.…

People usually use the word "democracy" as a synonym for "liberal democracies".

Which is an incredibly reductive understanding of the concept.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#94

Post by _kbh_ »

2devnull wrote: post #69
clouddrover wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine didn't seek out war. War was brought to Ukraine. Ukrainians are defending their nation from a belligerent invader. Ukrainians are fighting and dying for the mere right to be Ukrainian. That's as existential as it gets. You have understood nothing.

Ukrainians are dying in a war that any educated person knows they are likely to lose. The more money we send them, the more Ukrainians will die. The best solution is a peaceful solution. If you are so righteous in your concern for the plight of Ukrainians, go there and help them! Otherwise you are like the guy who coerces his buddy into a fistfight while hiding safely in the shadows, like a miserable coward.

> Ukrainians are dying in a war that any educated person knows they are likely to lose. The more money we send them, the more Ukrainians will die. The best solution is a peaceful solution.

The only peace with Russia is through strength.

The only way peace can exist in Ukraine is for the idea of attacking to Ukraine to incur such a large loss that it is unlikely Russia tries again.

Russia doesn't follow international agreements anyway, they have shown themselves to be entirely unreliable, in this situation the only peace must come at a military defeat for Russia.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#95

Post by _kbh_ »

2devnull wrote: post #69
clouddrover wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine didn't seek out war. War was brought to Ukraine. Ukrainians are defending their nation from a belligerent invader. Ukrainians are fighting and dying for the mere right to be Ukrainian. That's as existential as it gets. You have understood nothing.

Ukrainians are dying in a war that any educated person knows they are likely to lose. The more money we send them, the more Ukrainians will die. The best solution is a peaceful solution. If you are so righteous in your concern for the plight of Ukrainians, go there and help them! Otherwise you are like the guy who coerces his buddy into a fistfight while hiding safely in the shadows, like a miserable coward.

> Ukrainians are dying in a war that any educated person knows they are likely to lose. The more money we send them, the more Ukrainians will die. The best solution is a peaceful solution.

Ukrainian civilians are being raped and tortured by Russians in occupied territories as well.

So I guess the question is, how many of your family and friends would you let be tortured and raped before you did decided that maybe you should fight back?.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#96

Post by roundandround »

clouddrover wrote: post #77
roundandround wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option. And who suggested that? The question is whether Russia will violate 80 years of superpower precedent by acting with integrity and admitting defeat and willingness to face externally determined consequences or if something else will happen.

> The question is whether Russia will violate 80 years of superpower precedent No need to ask that question. Putin has made Russia weaker, poorer, and a pariah with fewer friends: https://fortune.com/2023/02/20/russia-economy-self-immolated... Russia has become a lesser state run by a sad little man. If Russia wants to rebuild itself then its best option is to remove Putin and withdraw entirely from Ukraine.

> Russia gets out and stays out of Ukraine, Russia extradites those Russians who have committed war crimes, and Russia pays reparations for the rebuilding of Ukraine.

> If Russia wants to rebuild itself then its best option is to remove Putin and withdraw entirely from Ukraine

The second option doesn't seem to require Russia to do the first. Nor does it really require Russia to remove Putin to get peace. Putin withdrawing is no doubt more realistic if China helps put lipstick on the pig with an obfuscated treaty on future alliances that can be called a victory.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#97

Post by thevagrant »

yogthos wrote: post #81
thevagrant wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesnt make sense. Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Also NATO is a defensive alliance. It seems some countries don't want their neighbors to defend themselves?

It's utterly dishonest to argue that NATO is a defensive alliance in the face of the fact that NATO has been regularly invading countries for many decades. Yugoslavia, Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria are just a few examples.

I couldn't find reference to NATO involvement in Syria.

Perhaps you mistake countries who are part of NATO to being NATO itself?

"just a few examples".. I expect there are lots more examples you can give? Especially if your point is that NATO is not a defensive alliance and is used to invade and gain territory.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#98

Post by yogthos »

thevagrant wrote: post #97
yogthos wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's utterly dishonest to argue that NATO is a defensive alliance in the face of the fact that NATO has been regularly invading countries for many decades. Yugoslavia, Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria are just a few examples.

I couldn't find reference to NATO involvement in Syria. Perhaps you mistake countries who are part of NATO to being NATO itself? "just a few examples".. I expect there are lots more examples you can give? Especially if your point is that NATO is not a defensive alliance and is used to invade and gain territory.

Even if you discount Syria, the rest of the examples are NATO projects. If NATO was a defensive alliance as you claimed then it would not be constantly invading countries. NATO literally murdered and displaced millions of people in wars of aggression. It's absolutely surreal that somebody could possibly respond with I want to see more atrocities before I agree this is an aggressive alliance.

NATO massacred over 6 million in war on terror alone https://bylinetimes.com/2021/09/15/up-to-six-million-people-...

Meanwhile, US is obviously the biggest NATO member and what it does is clearly condoned by the rest of NATO members whether they are involved directly or not.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#99

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

grayhatter wrote: post #42
yogthos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.…

> I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america- ... I'm not sure if I'm supposed to pretend to be shocked that in a country who's censorship apparatus i…

Both of you are wrong.

China is most definitely not a democracy. At the same time, it is misunderstood in the West, and it's nothing like the nightmare that most Westerners imagine. Westerners are subjected to an unbelievable level of propaganda when it comes to China. China is neither a utopia nor a dystopia.

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