The next SOPA • Hacker News Board

Re: The next SOPA

#91

Post by quanticle » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 7:38 PM UTC

iamandrus wrote: post #42

mikeash wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could say that the MPAA's restrictions are also for the viewer's sake, and with the huge amount of viewers they obviously got that right. I don't believe it, but I don't see where it's wrong but the equivalent for Apple is right. Personally, I think Apple's policies are more destructive. They're doing a pretty decent job of convincing an entire generation that locked-down, manufacturer-controlled computing is good.…

I never said that Apple was right. There are a lot of things I disagree with in regard to Apple (I hated the first iPhone, I really did). I said that you're comparing two completely different models and range of products. You're also assuming that everyone who uses a computer knows how to modify it and not break it. Understand that a lot of Apple users want a device that just works . They don't want to have to mess a…

Replace "consumer" with "musician" or "filmmaker", and every argument in support of Apple's locked down systems also applies to the RIAA and MPAA. To hear them speak, these policies are the only think keeping the ravening barbarian hordes of Internet users from destroying the all of the art and culture in our society.

The MPAA views Internet users in the same way that Apple views people attempting to unlock or jailbreak their device. They have nothing but contempt for those of us who dare to use the products that we've purchased in a way that they have not envisioned. In their world, they tell us what we are and are not allowed to do, and we meekly submit. Both MPAA and Apple have this mentality and I find it rather hateful.

Re: The next SOPA

#92

Post by chc » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 7:38 PM UTC

thebigshane wrote: post #68

thebigshane wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (I'm speaking for the entire internet community, which is probably a bad thing to do) could also stop pirating as well. I mean it would be really something if everyone halved their entertainment budget and halved their "illegal downloads/sharing". That would be a significant message as well. It wouldn't be very easy to convince Joe SixPack, but it might be easier than true campaign finance reform.

Am I really being downvoted for suggesting people stop pirating?

Yes, you are. You would probably also be downvoted for suggesting that we "Give peace a chance." As nice a sentiment as it might be, it's more platitude than practicality. You don't even mention why or to what end you're suggesting that people stop pirating, so no one is likely to change their stance or behavior based on your comment.

Moreover, the piracy numbers thrown out by the industry are almost entirely fabricated (it really doesn't seem like they have any good idea about how much piracy is going on), so even if everyone did what you would suggest, the industry would almost certainly blame piracy for their profits falling by 50% anyway.

Re: The next SOPA

#93

Post by twentysix » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 7:40 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #40

But I like to watch movies. I think a lot of movies are great--great enough to pay for them. Why should I shoot myself in the foot to keep someone else from shooting me in the foot? This idea that the root cause of all bad legislation is political donations: it's wrong, and not supported by the data. The vast majority of political donations are made by people who are not lobbyists. No one raised more political money…

The problem is not engagement. It is the duty of citizens to elect representatives and its the duty of legislature to make laws in accordance with the constitution. They are the ones who should be doing the research to find an optimum solution to the problem. It's their job after all. What you are suggesting is that we should guide them like children and show them the way so they can do what they were supposed to do in the first place. If they are our representatives why do we need someone else to represent ourselves to our representatives? When elections come there are'nt any better alternatives either. The power of voting is over rated doesnot amount to much.

Re: The next SOPA

#94

Post by badclient » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 7:40 PM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #70

TomOfTTB wrote: post #52

I think he makes a valid point but then gets lost in emotionalism. Here’s the thing. They don’t hate you. The people who work at the companies that support the MPAA absolutely don’t hate you. They simply like themselves and like the money they’re getting now. If anything they’re afraid of you because they think you want to eliminate the way they make a living. The problem is people on the other side don’t agree on wh…

Actually, I've thought about this, and I'm pretty sure the MPAA Hates their customers, and, given a choice, if they could get their money without having to deal with customers, would prefer to do so. I'm not saying the actors, and the grips, and the makeup people, Hate me _personally_ - but the commercial organizations they represent, as a collective, hate the fact that I'm an active viewer and consumer of their end…

and, given a choice, if they could get their money without having to deal with customers, would prefer to do so

So would I. I'd love to make free money too if I could.

Re: The next SOPA

#95

Post by DanI-S » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 7:42 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #40

But I like to watch movies. I think a lot of movies are great--great enough to pay for them. Why should I shoot myself in the foot to keep someone else from shooting me in the foot? This idea that the root cause of all bad legislation is political donations: it's wrong, and not supported by the data. The vast majority of political donations are made by people who are not lobbyists. No one raised more political money…

This idea that the root cause of all bad legislation is political donations: it's wrong, and not supported by the data. The vast majority of political donations are made by people who are not lobbyists.

If lobbyists' money didn't give their words extra weight, why would they donate any of it?

Re: The next SOPA

#96

Post by thebigshane » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 7:45 PM UTC

groupthink wrote: post #86

thebigshane wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I really being downvoted for suggesting people stop pirating?

It seems to me that this solution simply isn't going to work- similar to asking criminals to stop stealing cars/ murdering people.

Hmm, my point is that if we can convince people to give less money to the MPAA (buying movies, movie tickets), we should also discourage pirating those same movies, to avoid the exact scenario Anechoic mentioned.

I don't think its like asking criminals to not be criminals. I thinks more like: "if you want those bullies to pick on you less, try to act less like a dork". Some may feel like it would be betraying their values, but it really would give the bully less motivation to attack your values.

But I agree its unlikely to happen.

Re: The next SOPA

#97

Post by Dn_Ab » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 7:49 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #40

But I like to watch movies. I think a lot of movies are great--great enough to pay for them. Why should I shoot myself in the foot to keep someone else from shooting me in the foot? This idea that the root cause of all bad legislation is political donations: it's wrong, and not supported by the data. The vast majority of political donations are made by people who are not lobbyists. No one raised more political money…

>This idea that the root cause of all bad legislation is political donations: it's wrong, and not supported by the data. The vast majority of political donations are made by people who are not lobbyists.

You make a very bold statement without backing it with any line of reasoning or pointing to any supporting material. I am no expert in this matter so I can not know if you are wrong.

But in an older thread someone posted this excellent talk by Lawrence Lessig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik1AK56FtVc. It's well worth watching and counters your statement. His arguments are very well presented and reasoned. He also shows some supporting data.

Given that, I cannot attribute much weight to your statement.

Re: The next SOPA

#98

Post by nostromo » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 7:50 PM UTC

Campaign finance reform is not a panacea. I notice that it's popular to blame money in politics for everything. Don't like a bill? Any bill? Obviously corrupt politicians are bought and paid for! Why else would they vote for such junk, right?

Wrong. SOPA and PIPA to a congressperson and to a large number of ordinary people make sense. The internet seems like a lawless place. To lawmakers, this is infuriating. People in government, left and right, believe in government solutions to most problems. Otherwise why would they work in government? As in most professions, there is a strong bias for action. Action feels like progress, even when the cure is worse than the disease.

Even if you got every dollar out of politics you will always see this pattern: lawmakers have one tool, instead of a hammer it's legislation, and all the world looks like a nail.

Re: The next SOPA

#99

Post by funkah » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 7:53 PM UTC

groggles wrote: post #8

Given that the author is Marco (and the article is on HN because it is from Marco Arment), I wonder what his boycott position is regarding Apple? Apple has a long history of supporting draconian IP policies, and has a business model built around controlling what you can do with what you bought. Financially Apple absolutely dwarfs the combined revenue of all of the MPAA realm. I don't mean to distract the conversation…

His bedrock assumption is that MPAA companies hate their customers, and that is why he suggests a boycott. But if you asked him the same thing about Apple, he would say that they like their customers, and want to delight them.

You might not agree with him about whether these organizations really hold these stances toward their customers, but his argument flows from these two underlying assumptions.

Re: The next SOPA

#100

Post by bad_user » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 7:56 PM UTC

api wrote: post #35

mikeash wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could say that the MPAA's restrictions are also for the viewer's sake, and with the huge amount of viewers they obviously got that right. I don't believe it, but I don't see where it's wrong but the equivalent for Apple is right. Personally, I think Apple's policies are more destructive. They're doing a pretty decent job of convincing an entire generation that locked-down, manufacturer-controlled computing is good.…

I agree, and I'd kind of like to boycott Apple at this point. But the problem is that I need to get my work done, and Apple has a monopoly. On what? On decent UI design and hardware/software that "just works." Linux UIs are getting slightly better with Gnome 3 and Unity, but they still suck. (And they're getting better by copying Apple.) Windows UIs have been getting worse since XP. (All the good features in Windows…

When I'm working on Linux, I wish I'd work on OS X. When I'm on OS X, I wish I'd work on Linux.

OS X just works and all that, but it is a constrained environment that lacks the Debian repository. MacPorts is painful as hell, it broke my installed packages twice and the last thing you ever want to do is to upgrade all installed packages (because, you know, you might fear security risks). It also installs its own replacements for whatever OS X ships with, being its own little bubble, which drives me insane.

And what's the fix for MacPorts? That's right, Homebrew, which is a bunch of scripts that compiles your packages (again) from source and you end up praying to God that the software you want is available, that it takes care of all dependencies and that it compiles until the end, as you've got no idea what to do otherwise. Like it's freaking 1996.

So you know, now I'm happy working on Ubuntu full-time, which inherits the most awesome software repository ever from Debian. It may not be the shiniest and most polished operating system ever, but it treats me well as a developer, it doesn't restrict me in any way and I never had any problem that's unworkable.

     BTW, I'll give you all a hint on good design: 
     minimal is a synonym for good. Exterminate features.

In general people saying that don't know what they are talking about. Any simple interface that actually does what you want is actually a beast under the hood. If it isn't then the software is mostly useless.

What most people are missing: the interface/software should do what you want, not the other way around.

This is my biggest problem with Ubuntu lately. I would have rather preferred for them to not fuck around with Gnome's interface, pulling out a proven and working interface, replacing it with broken software in the name of simplicity. I want it to work, not marvel at how simple, shiny and useless it is.