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Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

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Re: Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

#91
post #71
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it not also possible that the study suggests that the human mind actually operates as a statistical regression over billions of data points rather than through some kind of Baysian logic? No. Human minds have semantic relationships to the rest of the world that LLMs do not have. The comparisons being made between the two, not just in this paper but in all of the hype surrounding LLMs, are simply invalid. But the…

Please define “semantic relationship”.

See my response to strbean upthread.

Re: Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

#92
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly they are big state machines, but is there any proof that we are not?

Insistence that the brain just isn't a computer is extremely widespread among those who are experts in the brain and know little about computers. As someone in the opposite situation I must say that their observations about what's special about the brain fit most closely to what I understand about computers and bring me to exactly the opposite conclusion. If the brain is not a computer, it's frankly eerie how similar…

Of course metaphor trumps domain expertise.

Re: Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

#93
post #78
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it not also possible that the study suggests that the human mind actually operates as a statistical regression over billions of data points rather than through some kind of Baysian logic? No. Human minds have semantic relationships to the rest of the world that LLMs do not have. The comparisons being made between the two, not just in this paper but in all of the hype surrounding LLMs, are simply invalid. But the…

> Human minds have semantic relationships to the rest of the world that LLMs do not have. This is a bold claim that seems built on a presumption of mind-body dualism. Brains don't have semantic relationships with anything. They are neurons hooked up to sensors and actuators. Any inferences they produce are the result of statistical processes.

> Any inferences they produce are the result of statistical processes.

I don't know how you would justify this claim since we don't know nearly enough about how the brain actually does things like make inferences.

Re: Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

#94
post #20

> Me: There is a box on the table labelled "flubbergums". Somebody opens it and shows you the content. Inside the box are "jellyfils". They close the box again so you cannot see their contents. What do you think is in the box? > ChatGPT: Based on the information provided, it is likely that the box labeled "flubbergums" contains "jellyfils". However, since the contents of the box are no longer visible, I cannot confir…

It gave me different answers:

     ME: There is a box on the table labelled "flubbergums". Somebody opens it and shows you the content. Inside the box are "jellyfils". They close the box again so you cannot see their contents. What do you think is in the box?
    chatGPT: Based on the information provided, I would infer that the contents of the box labelled "flubbergums" are "jellyfils". The label on the box and the contents that were shown to you suggest that "flubbergums" and "jellyfils" are the same or related items. However, without additional information or context, I cannot be certain what "jellyfils" actually are.

     ME: Billy comes to the table. He has never seen the box before. What do you think do they think is inside the box?
     chatGPT: As an AI language model, I don't have personal opinions or emotions, but based on the information given, I would infer that Billy has not seen the box before and has no prior knowledge of what it contains. If someone showed Billy the contents of the box and told him that it was labelled "flubbergums," he might think that the contents of the box are "jellyfils," just as you were told. However, without any additional information or context, Billy would not be able to make any assumptions about the contents of the box.

     ME: Did you assume billy was given any information about the box before he saw the box for the first time? 
     chatGPT: I apologize for any confusion. You did not mention if Billy was given any information about the box before he saw it for the first time. Without any additional information, I would assume that Billy saw the box for the first time and had no prior knowledge of what it contained.

     ME: What would he think in this case?
     chatGPT: If Billy saw the box for the first time without any information about its contents, he would likely make an assumption about what was inside based on the appearance of the box and any labels or writing on it. For example, if the box was labelled "flubbergums," Billy might assume that the contents of the box are "flubbergums." However, without additional information or a way to see inside the box, Billy's assumption would only be an educated guess.
So what's going on here? I'm not so sure the answer is so clear cut that chatGPT is "stupid" because it it's giving us inconsistent answers.

Let's get something out of the way first. For your second query I think it just made an assumption that Billy is communicating with people who saw what's inside the box. From a logical perspective this is not an unreasonable assumption. So chatGPT is not being stupid here. Most humans would obviously know you're fishing for a specific answer and read your intentions here, but chatGPT is likely just making logical assumptions without reading your intentions.

I think there's two possibilities here.

1. We queried chat-GPT at different times. ChatGPT knows the truth it simply wasn't trained to give you the truth because there's not enough reinforcement training on it yet. It gives you anything that's looks like the truth and it's fine with it. You queried it at an earlier time it gave you a BS answer. I queried it at a later time and it gave me a better answer because openAI upgraded the model with more reinforcement training.

2. We queried the same model at similar times. I assume the model must be deterministic. That means there some seed data (either previous queries or deliberate seeds by some internal mechanism) indicating that the chatgpt knows the truth and chooses to lie or tell the truth randomly.

Either way the fact that an alternative answer exists doesn't preclude the theories espoused by the article. I feel a lot of people are dismissing chatGPT too quickly based off of seeing chatGPT act stupid. Yes it's stupid at times, but you literally cannot deny the fact that it's performing incredible feats of intelligence at other times.

Re: Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

#95
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly they are big state machines, but is there any proof that we are not?

Because if we were, it would hurt my feefees.

Or it would hurt your feelings to consider that you might not intuitively understand something. Hah! And yet you gloat.

Re: Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

#96
post #86
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you know whether I have a mind or not.

If you object to the term "mind", just leave it out and read "brain and mind" as just "brain". I'm a physicalist so I don't think the mind is something separate from the brain anyway, so it's all the same to me.

I don’t object to “mind”, but it’s famously unprovable whether other beings we presume to be conscious actually experience internal mental states. See also: qualia, p-zombies, the hard problem of consciousness.

Re: Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

#97
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the case of an LLM the language generated doesn't have the same relationship to reality as it does for a person. I wish I could upvote this 1000 times. It is the core issue that all the hype surrounding LLMs consistently fails to address or even acknowledge.

OK how about this: It 'knows' language, as in it has learnt about relationships between words (and thats really underselling it, in reality it has learnt very very subtle relationships between a great many words, and it can process words about 2000 at a time (token count etc)) BUT as you say it has no outside reference, its just a bundle of weights (those weights forming models of a sort) BUT we provide the outside c…

> it wont be long before someone hooks one of these up to cameras and robot arms and teaches it to make a cup of tea or whatever.

And that will at least be a start at giving these things some very simple semantic relationships with the outside world. But right now they have none.

Re: Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

#98
post #93
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Human minds have semantic relationships to the rest of the world that LLMs do not have. This is a bold claim that seems built on a presumption of mind-body dualism. Brains don't have semantic relationships with anything. They are neurons hooked up to sensors and actuators. Any inferences they produce are the result of statistical processes.

> Any inferences they produce are the result of statistical processes. I don't know how you would justify this claim since we don't know nearly enough about how the brain actually does things like make inferences.

But we know enough about fundamental physics to know that all physical processes are statistical ones.

Re: Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

#99
post #91
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please define “semantic relationship”.

See my response to strbean upthread.

Okay. It seems to me that, in analogy to humans having such a relationship with physical reality, machine learning systems have such a relationship with virtual reality — the environment in which they are trained and deployed.

Re: Theory of Mind May Have Spontaneously Emerged in Large Language Models

#100
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK how about this: It 'knows' language, as in it has learnt about relationships between words (and thats really underselling it, in reality it has learnt very very subtle relationships between a great many words, and it can process words about 2000 at a time (token count etc)) BUT as you say it has no outside reference, its just a bundle of weights (those weights forming models of a sort) BUT we provide the outside c…

Yeah, that argument seems especially hollow. Take someone and put their brain in a jar, with some Brain Computer Interface that enables call-and-response text chat. Are they suddenly not conscious, because they no longer have some transcendent connection with reality?

> Take someone and put their brain in a jar, with some Brain Computer Interface that enables call-and-response text chat.

This is a much, much, much less complex and rich semantic relationship with the outside world than the brain had before. So you would expect it to drastically change the brain's state and hence its consciousness. I don't think you have fully considered the implications: the brain would have no sight, no hearing, no smell, no taste, no touch, no kinesthetic sense of its body, no sense of hunger, thirst, no sense of heartbeat, breathing, etc., etc, etc., I could go on and on. And that's just the sensory side; the motor side is a whole other can of worms that you haven't even mentioned.

> Are they suddenly not conscious, because they no longer have some transcendent connection with reality?

I don't think anyone can make authoritative statements about what this kind of scenario would be like. But to answer the question exactly as you ask it, the answer is "mu" because the claim was not that consciousness requires any kind of "transcendent connection with reality", it was the much more mundane claim that the kind of knowledge we humans have is based on an extremely complex and rich physical connection with the rest of the world.

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