Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance • Hacker News Board

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#91

Post by yummyfajitas » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 8:39 PM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #81

yummyfajitas wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that communism was centered around the notion that people are all equal and highly malleable, not that there were intrinsic and immutable differences between human groups. But assuming you are actually referring to nationalists (who probably rank #2 on the list of "worst things humans have done to each other"), I'll just quote a blog post Bryan Caplan wrote today: We've learned so much from…

Wasn't referring to nationalists specifically. I was thinking of the broad ranger range of things like slavery, genocide, segregation, apartheid, etc. If you think that communism is worse, that's fine by me. It doesn't change the fact that history is littered with cautionary examples of group-based determinism gone terribly wrong. It's naive to pretend otherwise.

History is also littered with cautionary examples of [belief in] equality and malleability gone terribly wrong.

"Meaningful variations between groups" does not logically imply that concentration camps are good policy, just as a belief in equality does not imply that gulags are.

Supposing that Jews are only half as smart as Aryans, it doesn't imply that they should be killed. Similarly, if I'm twice as smart as my maid, it doesn't follow that I should murder her. In both cases, you need some intrinsic moral belief that killing is acceptable - and that's where the real problem lies.

Also, need I point out that you are employing the logical fallacy of "appeal to consequences"?

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#92

Post by lancewalton » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 8:44 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #60

For a given value of true, Programming is just normal human language literacy with slightly stricter syntax rules. As such I say there should be as many good women programmers to good male programmers as there are good women writers.

Programming is just writing lines of code with correct syntax?

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#93

Post by cema » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 8:48 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #52

cturner wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was told I'd never be a programmer because I didn't get good marks in math and physics, that was sixteen years ago. Let's kill the myth. I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more important to effective programming than being good at chemistry (layers and sequence), biology (complex systems) or languages (building meaning from abstract or incomplete signals). You do not need to be good at late…

I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more importnat to effective programming... I would strongly suspect that just as math and CS ability are correlated, so would math and chemistry. Biology less so, since biology is mostly just memorizing (at least for the first 3-4 years of college). Anyway, I cited math data mainly because it's so widely studied. I get so many downvotes when I discuss this to…

  I would strongly suspect that 
  just as math and CS ability are correlated, 
  so would math and chemistry.

I am not sure about that. In my experience, mathematics and chemistry were not noticeably correlated (either way). On the other hand, such ostensibly different subjects as mathematics and music were positively correlated. Experience is anecdotal but includes math classes in high school, applied math in college, and computer science in grad school.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#94

Post by mc32 » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 8:48 PM UTC

loumf wrote: post #57

It's fun to take apart the logic, rhetoric, and nitpick on every word of this post. We could argue the premise all day long -- and 5 years from now there will be fewer women, minorities, etc, than there are now. Instead I prefer to take constructive action to change this, without worrying if (1) it is natural or unnatural or (2) it would be better. I accept that the current state is unnatural and a more balanced popu…

I agree with you. Not sure about the "unnatural" qualifier though. That presumes an active agent present.

What can be done. I think that's difficult. It has to be something pervasive, insidious in the culture. Via TV, internet, radio, entertainment, education, propagated by not only peers but all via all media. Everywhere. There needs to cease the archetyping of human roles. Something on that scale could happen, but it would take a generation or two. Kind of like the deprogramming of National socialism in Germany, or deprogramming of Religion in (soviet) Russia. 100% success isn't necessary, just enough to overcome the momentum or steady state.

Very vast, very pervasive with both incentives and punishment. Piecemeal I don't think would result in fast enough turn-around in attitude.

To me the problem is cultural. It's not men or women, it's the whole body of the culture which results in the skewed numbers.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#95

Post by MartinCron » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 8:52 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #91

MartinCron wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't referring to nationalists specifically. I was thinking of the broad ranger range of things like slavery, genocide, segregation, apartheid, etc. If you think that communism is worse, that's fine by me. It doesn't change the fact that history is littered with cautionary examples of group-based determinism gone terribly wrong. It's naive to pretend otherwise.

History is also littered with cautionary examples of [belief in] equality and malleability gone terribly wrong. "Meaningful variations between groups" does not logically imply that concentration camps are good policy, just as a belief in equality does not imply that gulags are. Supposing that Jews are only half as smart as Aryans, it doesn't imply that they should be killed. Similarly, if I'm twice as smart as my mai…

I'm not even sure what the argument is here. I gave an honest and legitimate reply to the question "Why is it so hard to imagine that maybe there are meaningful group variations within the human species?"

I'm not saying it should be so hard. If we had a greater understanding of differences, that would probably be great. But it is hard, and it helps to be honest about that.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#96

Post by yummyfajitas » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 8:56 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #88

yummyfajitas wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only does he make the logical fallacies you suggest, but he also ignores plenty of evidence that there might be natural causes: For instance, there is plenty of evidence women are less likely to be very good (or very bad) at math: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/321/5888/494.summary http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21038941 There is also evidence women are more risk averse, making them less likely to work in…

This report also pushes the intolerance hypothesis, as well as women being less dedicated, being fearful of text interfaces, and preferring more collectivist environments: http://web.archive.org/web/20091007234852/http://opensource.... . (Please go read the report before criticizing me for citing it. It's written by a woman who is allegedly a feminist.) That is a misleading characterization of the paper, which aims a…

The article certainly does not suggest a "lingering deficiency of women's IT education" w.r.t. the use of text. It suggests that women "usually obtain their programming expertise through the formal education system" and that schools teach primarily "Microsoft visual basic, visual C++ or Java." The only "educational disparity" is that women don't teach themselves to use the shell whereas men do.

You are correct, however, that my use of the term "fearful" was wrong. Thanks for the correction. In actuality, the article doesn't explain why women don't teach themselves how to use gcc.

And yes, you are also correct when you point out that one specific reason women are less dedicated and less willing to put the time in is that they have other interests (such as child rearing and housework).

Apart from the minor issue of whether "fearful" was correct, what do you object to about my characterization?

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#97

Post by bethling » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 9:19 PM UTC

youngnerd112 wrote: post #54

cturner wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was told I'd never be a programmer because I didn't get good marks in math and physics, that was sixteen years ago. Let's kill the myth. I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more important to effective programming than being good at chemistry (layers and sequence), biology (complex systems) or languages (building meaning from abstract or incomplete signals). You do not need to be good at late…

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them! Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

I've been called a bitch to my face during architectural debates. I've had responses to my technical comments come back as "whatever, sudo make me a sandwich". Been asked while doing interviews, "Oh wait you're not HR?" I've gone to many presentations contain sexist images, etc. Throughout my career I've been constantly had to deal with implications that I don't belong - and that my opinions can be dismissed..

Yet, somehow I manage to keep the perspective that technology isn't populated by sexist assholes - sure the ones that are there stand out and make up a lot of the things that come to mind when I'm stressed. But really it's a small percentage [even though that small percentage can really get to you].

Try to keep the same perspective about women, the vast majority of us aren't "bitches".

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#98

Post by youngnerd112 » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 9:29 PM UTC

jessedhillon wrote: post #67

youngnerd112 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them! Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

Assuming that you are commenting here because you favor the theory that women are inhibited in some way from being effective software engineers -- and that is why they are underrepresented: For women not to be represented in the population that practices software engineering indicates some intrinsic flaw or inability with them -- but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around -- But for y…

It was in response to the parents comment

"but young nerds in particular tend to act bizarrely towards women, and are therefore undesirable to be around."

and a personal explanation of why I as a young nerd is slowly developing this kind of a bias.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#99

Post by youngnerd112 » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 9:31 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #83

youngnerd112 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them! Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

Then again, maybe it's you.

It definitely is me....the point is about why as a young male with a not perfectly rational human brain I cant seem to be able to stop myself from developing biases.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#100

Post by lancewalton » Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 9:34 PM UTC

I want more competent people in all jobs regardless of their genetic and cultural makeup.

In software development, we seem to be beset by an astonishing array of incompetence. The bar is so low that nobody should argue that any particular sub-group of the population would, by nature, be worse.

However, I am always intrigued that when people talk about "diversity", they always look to balance the high end of the spectrum, and never the low end.

For example:

Between 2003 and 2008, over 39 out of every 40 deaths in (US) military operations in Iraq were men. Where's the outcry about gender imbalance?

Who is in prison, the world over as criminals or political prisoners? The vast majority are men. Where's the outcry about gender imbalance?

In the US, most homeless people are men. Where's the outcry about gender imbalance?

Over 90% of people killed while performing their job are men. Where's the outcry about gender imbalance?

Men on average die three of four years younger than women. Where's all the research into finding out why?

Why on the news, when reporting exam results, is it a triumph that girls have outperformed boys for the last several years?

I read an article once that said that two industries showing the greatest gender imbalance were "programming" and janitoring. The article then went on to talk about systematic gender discrimination in the software field (yes... "geeks" and "nerds" came into it a lot). But why did the article make no more mention of the need to get more women into janitoring?