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Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#91

Post by icedchai »

amackera wrote: post #53
icedchai wrote: post #26

Things were better before agile / scrum / annoying processes took over. Not all companies were waterfall, they kind of just "did things" without any well defined process. This was how things were until roughly the early 2010's. I remember working for weeks, after a couple of whiteboard sessions. You'd meet about what you were going to do, work on it, and come back a week or two later. Occasionally there would be info…

Before you did agile, were there ever death marches, slipped deadlines, pissed off clients, or long crunches? Your comment has the sparkle of nostalgia for glory days gone by.

Yes. And sometimes those things still happen with "agile", too.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#92

Post by crgi »

torben-friis wrote: post #25

I am the exact opposite. I mean, I don’t like processes and meetings, but I do like the planning and architecture part much more than I like actually writing code. Usually, if your mind is decently organized, I find that the problem is solved before writing a single line of code. If that happens, then the actual part of writing becomes dull and mechanical - the problem has already been solved. I’ve never understood p…

Same for me. Jumping into the code can be fun at times. But if the software is not modelled well, a lot of bugs will orginate from structural issues. When you see those, the bugs become anoying to fix because you basically know new ones will pop up eventually since the root cause is not adressed. Applying concepts like DDD will be of very little value without a profound understanding of the domain at hand. This is mostly established by non-coding activities.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#93

Post by cratermoon »

ResearchCode wrote: post #65
mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #49

The process that comes with it is there to organize the work and align it with the organization's goals. It can be agile, kanban, waterfall with big upfront design, it doesn't really matter what methodology is used, its there to organize the work. For large and/or existing systems, without that glue there would be programmers running amok solving problems they like to solve with whatever shiny things they want to use…

That's called code review, you don't need any "agile" for it. Agile is used to micromanage engineers to push out crap features, optimizing for the two week return, with poor results in the longer term. The people running amok are layman "agile coaches", "business analysts" and "product owners". While poor engineers are prevented from doing necessary non-feature work.

> Agile is used to micromanage engineers to push out crap features, optimizing for the two week return, with poor results in the longer term

More correctly, organizations micromanage engineers to push out crap features, optimizing for the two week return, with poor results in the longer term, and call it 'agile'. They wouldn't know the nature agile if it fell on their heads.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#94

Post by jcbrand »

digitalsushi wrote: post #56
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Even if this is true (which it most likely is), there's no guarantee the company you move to (in your quest of finding "the right company") won't either a) also be the wrong company again right off the bat or b) become the wrong company again. I've kind of just given up. I've accepted I'm basically a "technical plumber". Take data from this system/vendor…

Three years ago I was stuck at a huge fortune 100 with all the ceremonies, business language, and paycheck collectors. I started to shop around. I found an amazing place, a company that was a software company not not a company that happened to write some software. The interviews went amazing, everything was Star Trek utopian future amazing, it was like the fantasy I had about where I wanted to work had manifested. I…

> so I hung out in the lobby for several hours waiting for anyone brave enough to get me to the badge people

Did you consider asking someone going in or out to help you get a badge or to put you into contact with the right person?

Sounds like you passively waited for someone to come and help you, which might be fine for a short while, but eventually it's better to take action.

I've never heard of a "professional bench warmer" in software development. It's not as if devs get injured regularly and need replacements. Why do you think they'd hire you just to not give you anything to do?

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#95

Post by jstx1 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #6

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

Not enough process can be a pain too. "Just do this for us" without specific requirements, and then the thing you've built is never good enough and needs to be continually refined anyway or it's never used. Those environments are also soul crushing, just in a different way from the ones with too much process.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#96

Post by rewgs »

Decabytes wrote: post #44

One thing I've realized is that a lot of people I know don't actually like programming or software engineering in general. A lot of my coworkers just do it because it's the tool they need to do their job (like using a hammer). It's tough because I love programming and geeking out about it, but it feels like no one around me feels the same way

I feel the same way. All my programmer friends have all said a version of the refrain, “I just work hard for 8 hours then check out. I don’t care about programming beyond what it will pay me.” I understand and of course don’t fault anyone for that point of view, but it’d be nice to be around people who actually get excited about this stuff.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#97

Post by kraig911 »

massinstall wrote: post #58
kraig911 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000x times this. It's a weird thing our profession. There's a horrible but apt (misogynistic even) saying. Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that…

Why is this saying misogynistic? Because it’s a statement about men or because of the implied possibility they could be unhappy in their marriage? Also, why is it horrible? It appears this world has become manically trigger-happy to label something as -ist or -istic, when it contains even only a hint of something someone could possibly understand the wrong way. It would be curious to examine in a psychological study…

To me it's misogynistic because when I heard it first it's implied that my happiness is tied to a woman. Since I'm happily married and very much in love I know that without her I'd probably end up being a philosopher pondering problems without answers to run away from the trauma of losing her. I've been through it before :)

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#98

Post by nouveaux »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #6

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

This 1000x. For a larger project, I asked and got approval for a POC. When I submitted the POC with feature flag for review, I was told by the same management that it wasn't "production worthy". Never burned out faster in my 20+ year career.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#99

Post by mangosteenjuice »

pydry wrote: post #76
kraig911 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000x times this. It's a weird thing our profession. There's a horrible but apt (misogynistic even) saying. Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that…

>I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that's another topic to me) All that stuff you hate isnt unique to software. It's just capitalism.

It's not just capitalism. Bloated management and wasteful processes are problems under feudalism and communism too.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#100

Post by radicalbyte »

No not at all. Software Engineering is about building systems to the appropriate quality level.

For projects I'm usually involved in: this means being disciplined, writing good quality tests, keeping code clean, documentation and following the various practises and conventions. This, if you're doing it properly, means you'll be able to ship code much faster than if just "programming".

I use scrum by choice; but you can deploy a lightweight version that cuts a lot of the bullshit if you have a good team.

If you're re-architecting things then that's a huge red flag. Unless the underlying assumptions have changed enormously or you're working for a start-up who had inept "programmers" (like myself 20 years ago) YOLO'd V1 then what you're doing ain't engineering.

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