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Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

politico.eu

91–100 of 184 posts

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#91
The article is way overblown and borderline clueless. First off, the Luddites demonstrating before the Web Summit had a political backing, they’re not a grassroots movement. That demonstration happened for the cameras (and to further a small party’s ambitions to the limelight).

Second, there is indeed backlash against the golden visa program, but the most meaningful bits are due to visas being granted to people who do zero actual investment in the country.

As to real estate, this is just the peak of a long crisis brought upon by idiotic zoning laws that favored high-value condos and villas, under pressure from a bunch of lobbyists from the building industry (we have at least two major cement lobbies here, each driven by its own influential family).

That, an emphasis on tourism and landlords’ resistance to maintaining or rebuilding existing buildings (partly due to inheritance laws, yes, but mostly driven by greed) has made it impossible to buy new flats in Lisbon even before “gentrification” from techies began.

(AirBnB is just another factor in this - a lot of those nice villas and flats are priced outside local affordances, and whoever buys them does so to rent out and drive a quick profit, since a lot of AirBnBs aren’t even taxed…)

The only thing the article gets right is that we have a completely bullshit legal and tax system that takes far too long for anyone to sort out - even natives. As an example, it is _much_ less sensible to work as a tech contractor here (unlike, say, the UK) because the fiscal load and legal protection are all stacked against you.

Even with “instant company” fast-tracking (which gives you a working legal entity in a few hours, provided you know where to apply to and how to do the paperwork), setting up a business and having official accounting requires some effort for a random Jane/Joe, especially if foreign.

But those barriers are fixable if you hire a local relocation/setup service, so real startups and savvy techies can breeze through those. The real trouble comes when you need to do contracts, pay taxes, etc. and there is a legal issue — courts here are slow, Byzantine and can take years to close a case, so brokerage (which can be fraught to navigate) is often the only option.

Anyway, the country isn’t broken because a few thousand crypto bros decided to settle in nice villas here. I know of several companies that are thriving here (hi Cloudflare!), even if there are constant paper cuts regarding bureaucracy.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#92

Lots of Goan friends have finally opted for that "ancestral" Portuguese passport and none of them have any intention of either working or staying in Portugal ever.

Why would you not get a free EU passport if you could?

Well, I wasn’t saying they should not. I was just pointing that out - kind of being in sync with what the post is pointing to.

As for not getting EU passport even if you could get that for free, there are too many very common and valid reasons to be listed here. And in fact there are other Goan acquaintances who didn’t want to. So let’s leave it at that.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.

No, Portugal is different. To give you perspective: it takes 2-3 years to exchange a foreign driver license (most foreigners I know drive illegally by now), a lot of administrations frequently “lose” applications and ask you to do it again when they have too much backlog (this cost me hundreds of dollars in back and forth, certified documents etc in the past). It’s also very common for administrations to have no one…

Most third world countries with such bad/slow bureaucracy solve those issues with bribery. I'd hate to live someplace that both has low corruption and such high bureaucratic burdens.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#95
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.

I'm not sure about Portugal, but a few years ago my wife was studying in Spain on a study abroad program. She is from another EU country, and we'd visited Spain a few times, so figured it would be easy. Pretty much every step of the way we encountered so much more bureaucracy (I am an immigrant to her country) than we could even imagine. She spoke Spanish, but if she didn't it would have been a million times harder.…

Had similar awful experiences with Santander and ISPs in Madrid :(

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#96
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the citizens want to make an extra buck renting their property?

It's impossible to pay rent in Lisbon while earning median salary as one person (855€ average rent for 1 bedroom apartment vs 1200€ median salary). At this point, there's no reason for anyone new to go live there.

My partner and I moved to Lisbon about 6 years ago. We lasted 3 months after it became clear that the rent was more expensive than what we had just been paying in Sydney.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#97
post #65
post #16

Currently living in the Algarve after moving to Lisbon with my partner for her studies years ago. I know a few non-crypto entrepreneurs who came here for the NHR (non habitual resident scheme - the scheme mentioned in the article which allowed for the 20% tax cap on foreign income). I can confirm that a lot of them were incredibly frustrated with the bureaucracy they encountered, not just when dealing with the govern…

> those that didn’t pay hefty fees to set up companies in tax havens I suppose it depends on your definition of "hefty" but a couple of thousand USD is usually sufficient, depending on jurisdiction, and obviously is expected to pay for itself many (, many, many) times over. It's not that hard and it's not just for the 1%. Especially if you're anything approaching a "digital nomad" I can't think of any reason why you…

If you live in Portugal for longer than 6 months every 12 months you are considered a resident and taxed accordingly. I suppose you could go in and out every few months to escape that.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#98
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the citizens want to make an extra buck renting their property?

It's impossible to pay rent in Lisbon while earning median salary as one person (855€ average rent for 1 bedroom apartment vs 1200€ median salary). At this point, there's no reason for anyone new to go live there.

I love how this HN thread immediately turned against tourists and ignored the impact of the cryptobros.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's not exactly always true. I've had zero problems with bureaucracy since moving to Australia. My case has been that everything just works - minimal human involvement, and when it's present - it's pretty optimized. I think that due to the high cost of labour (highest minimal pay in the world) and lack of labour due to higher speed of development - whatever that can be automated has been automated.

Same experience in NZ - you only start to see how hopeless europe is when you come back. I had 0 interaction with gov clark in nearly a decade in NZ, while in europe any sort of errand would require in face meetings. Even some digital forms would just email the form to a person in ivory tower for validation, who’ll tell you to visit office anyway…

Europe is not one place with one single bureaucracy.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.

I moved back to my native Netherlands after several years abroad and encountered significant problems with the bureaucracy, more so than in any foreign country I've lived. I don't think it's an expat problem, rather it's a "if you fall slightly outside of the happy path then you can expect to run in to a lot of trouble"-problem. It's just that expats are a group of people that fairly frequently tend to fall outside o…

I have heard the same from some Dutch people I know, particularly around the topic of the tax office.
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