Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early? • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#91

Post by mrdmnd » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:21 AM UTC

7373737373 wrote: post #17

ehaskins wrote: post #14

I've been teaching beginning guitar lessons for about seven years. Guitar is a little different in that, outside of classical guitar, there's very little traditional pedagogy, but from experience I think these things are generally true about most instruments. 1. When you start learning you sound terrible... for a long time. It's very difficult to stay motivated when you can hear your problems. 2. It's very difficult…

Restating a saying I heard: "you have a thousand bad notes in you, get rid of them as soon as possible"

When new players learn Go, they're told to "lose their first fifty games as fast as possible."

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#92

Post by AlbertCory » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:26 AM UTC

My piano teacher was telling me about some lady was 90 and still giving lessons. She said her ideal death would be to go while waiting for her next student, and the person who found her would be the one who never practices.

Since I don't play anymore, and she moved away anyway, I have a more relaxed attitude about it. I also meet lots and lots of people who studied, but now don't play either.

It really isn't that satisfying for a lot of people, let's face it. If it is for you, that's great and I'm genuinely happy for you. But there's nothing wrong with not wanting to play. It doesn't mean there was any fault in your teachers or your learning methods. Now you pick up your instrument or sit down at it, and everything's difficult. Pieces you used to play are now impossible.

In the old days, playing music and listening to music were much more closely related. Nowadays, you can hear a much better version of the Goldberg Variations than you'll ever manage to play (and if that statement doesn't fit you, I apologize). You can hear guitar solos that you have no hope of ever playing. Furthermore, your friends most likely don't want to hear you. Once you've made them smile with your Smoke on the Water riff they'll politely move on.

I think it's a good thing to have done. It makes you appreciate the music you listen to, much much more. But if you don't practice anymore, don't feel bad about it.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#93

Post by spacemadness » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:30 AM UTC

yamtaddle wrote: post #37

ehaskins wrote: post #14

I've been teaching beginning guitar lessons for about seven years. Guitar is a little different in that, outside of classical guitar, there's very little traditional pedagogy, but from experience I think these things are generally true about most instruments. 1. When you start learning you sound terrible... for a long time. It's very difficult to stay motivated when you can hear your problems. 2. It's very difficult…

I've found it surprisingly low effort to get good enough at guitar and, in fact, piano, that you can start to see social rewards, i.e. people actually want you to play, at least a little. Meanwhile I put in more hours and had far more formal instruction at a woodwind than either of those combined and... yeah, nobody wanted to hear that shit, it sounds awful (cringe-inducing, even) unless you're excellent . Years of e…

This is why guitar is considered a folk instrument. I think that’s what’s cool about guitar—-its low floor but high ceiling. You can strum open chords or on the other end learn difficult pieces on classical guitar. Similar to what you shared, classical guitarists will tell you nobody cares when they’re playing something super difficult. Sometimes people just can’t tell the effort it takes and don’t relate to the piece being played.

As a guitarist I found piano even easier to sound decent as there is no real threat of accidentally muting anything or plucking at a weird angle. But if you’re musically inclined its pretty easy to tell who has dedicated the time to learning it well.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#94

Post by analog31 » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:31 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #74

kube-system wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, the vast majority of classical or jazz musicians don't have any time to take drugs -- because they have day jobs.

Heroin, in particular, seems to get a lot of jazz musicians. There is a reason why most musicians will tell you to stay far away from heroin even if they are quite the partakers of almost everything else.

I've been a performing jazz musician for 40+ years. I've never heard of or observed heroin use, never been offered it. I doubt that jazz musicians are more or less likely to partake, than the population in general. Alcohol is a big problem.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#95

Post by jdougan » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:32 AM UTC

asimovfan wrote: post #59

Anectodal. Between 4-8 years old I took piano, guitar and solfege classes. I first went to a state conservatory when I was 4 and they told my parents i was super talented and I should go there. My mom did not like how strict they were and was afraid I would get traumatized so I took private classes. I hated every minute of all of them. I would barely (mostly never) touch the homework until the next class and the teac…

Looking for this. The conservatory system is a net negative for anyone but those who really want to be an orchestral player.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#96

Post by GlenTheMachine » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:39 AM UTC

My mom made me and both of my brothers take 9 years of piano lessons. Today, not one of us plays - I don't think any of us even has a keyboard in our houses.

The reason for this is simply that we were never allowed to play the kind of music we liked. Which was, of course, rock. Or blues, or country. Or, really, anything with a beat.

Nope; it was all classical all the time. And piano lessons were the only time we were ever exposed to classical music otherwise, so we had no opportunity to learn to like it; it was just a source of frustration and boredom.

We weren't even allowed to pick a different instrument; it had to be piano. Because mom wanted us to be able to play the organ in church.

That nine years of lessons was the single biggest waste of time in my entire life, and I work for the government.

In order for a child to learn anything on their own, which is the way a musician has to learn, really, they have to be incentivized. They have to like what they're doing, at least some of the time. The product has to be meaningful. And in music, like so much else in education, whether the child is actually engaged with the process is just never considered.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#97

Post by ehaskins » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:43 AM UTC

CuriouslyC wrote: post #47

ehaskins wrote: post #14

I've been teaching beginning guitar lessons for about seven years. Guitar is a little different in that, outside of classical guitar, there's very little traditional pedagogy, but from experience I think these things are generally true about most instruments. 1. When you start learning you sound terrible... for a long time. It's very difficult to stay motivated when you can hear your problems. 2. It's very difficult…

I think learning software has been transformative in this space, at least for baseline technical skills and coordination. Hopefully in the future the software will be able to give you feedback on stuff like tone and posture as well.

My experience with students that have used various learning software has been mixed.

They're not good for absolute beginners because it can't give you feedback on the bad physical habits that lead to repetitive strain injuries, or just make it hard to play.

Once you're past that point, you're usually far enough to find a tab or chord sheet and figure it out.

For a motivated intermediate level student there can be value in the smooth difficulty progression and forced introduction of new concepts, but that's a pretty small window where they add value.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#98

Post by Gigachad » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:45 AM UTC

boredemployee wrote: post #20

ehaskins wrote: post #14

I've been teaching beginning guitar lessons for about seven years. Guitar is a little different in that, outside of classical guitar, there's very little traditional pedagogy, but from experience I think these things are generally true about most instruments. 1. When you start learning you sound terrible... for a long time. It's very difficult to stay motivated when you can hear your problems. 2. It's very difficult…

I can relate a lot to what you said. I practice piano (jazz improvisation), and I have mix of love and hate with practicing. You basically spent lots of energy for little to no improvement at all lol, playing scales, arpeggios, etc. And if you stay like 1 month without practicing you waste a lot of time trying to go back where you stopped. It's like trying to go up an escalator that's going down, if you stop you come…

I gave up piano, was spending all my practice time just keeping level but not progressing. Switched to drawing art (mostly nsfw). Takes far less work imo and I don’t seem to regress in skill after taking a break.

You get way more attention for low skill drawings than music too.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#99

Post by djtango » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:58 AM UTC

yamtaddle wrote: post #37

ehaskins wrote: post #14

I've been teaching beginning guitar lessons for about seven years. Guitar is a little different in that, outside of classical guitar, there's very little traditional pedagogy, but from experience I think these things are generally true about most instruments. 1. When you start learning you sound terrible... for a long time. It's very difficult to stay motivated when you can hear your problems. 2. It's very difficult…

I've found it surprisingly low effort to get good enough at guitar and, in fact, piano, that you can start to see social rewards, i.e. people actually want you to play, at least a little. Meanwhile I put in more hours and had far more formal instruction at a woodwind than either of those combined and... yeah, nobody wanted to hear that shit, it sounds awful (cringe-inducing, even) unless you're excellent . Years of e…

Was mildly triggered by your comment at first, being a pianist, but on reflection you're right. The skill floor for the piano is objectively lower thanks to being percussive. But my god is it difficult trying to sing with a percussive instrument while also accompanying yourself with and extra 2-3 voices.

Timbre, vibrato and dynamic control over a single note mean that people will pay to listen to a beautiful singer or sax play a single line of music but my god does a pianist or guitarist have to work to keep up with that.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#100

Post by adriand » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:58 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #77

ehaskins wrote: post #14

I've been teaching beginning guitar lessons for about seven years. Guitar is a little different in that, outside of classical guitar, there's very little traditional pedagogy, but from experience I think these things are generally true about most instruments. 1. When you start learning you sound terrible... for a long time. It's very difficult to stay motivated when you can hear your problems. 2. It's very difficult…

Early learning should be focused on musicality and improvisation, not refined performance technique. Historically, even music in the so-called 'classical' tradition was mostly improvised. It's only in the late 19th century or so that technically virtuosic-performance playing of old repertoire became the only known standard of quality; but what those pieces of music were intended for originally was something quite dif…

This also tends to be my view because improvisation is what I enjoy doing musically the most, but my daughter (12 yo) takes piano lessons which are quite typical in their structure (Conservatory) and has no interest in improvisation, and in fact, has resisted my attempts to get her to try it. She's obsessed with classical music and practices all the time with no prompting (and is now able to play quite beautifully), so of course, I haven't continued trying to change what she's doing.

Perhaps what are needed are methods to determine the approach that will work best with a given child.