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A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

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Re: A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

#91

Post by rapind »

ars wrote: post #72
rapind wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I see your argument, I myself would enjoy a trip back in time where you would simply ask a local if they knew somewhere you could make a copy. There's no getting around the fact that socializing with the locals is inconvenient, but sometimes it can be a nice inconvenience. It has the added benefit that if your business pisses off the locals (crappy service perhaps) they'll probably recommend a competitor if the…

You must live in a very small town where locals actually know that. If you asked me where to make a copy in my neighborhood (much less city) I would have no idea. Big stores don't really need much advertising - it's the small shops that need this, and it's exactly those smaller shops that would be less known to the locals.

I challenge the assumption that most of us wouldn't know where to make a copy in their neighbourhood, if such a service was available within a reasonable distance.

I live in Toronto, so not too small. I know my neighbourhood very well actually. If you bumped into me on the street I could tell you:

1) Where to make a copy (small independent office store nearby, but it's expensive, also where to find others).

2) Where to grab a coffee / baked goods with a recommendation of which one I prefer (none of them being Starbucks or a Tims).

3) Your options for Indian, Thai, Italian food, etc.

4) Grocery stores and the quality of their produce.

5) Local mechanics.

6) Parks.

7) Parking.

And plenty of more specific shops.

Most of these places are small independent shops. They really didn't need any signage since I've walked or driven past many of them multiple times.

I've only lived in this specific neighbourhood for a year and a half. I've lived in the city for about 15 years.

You may not know where to go to get a copy, but many of us do and not through any kind of superhuman effort either.

Also, having the internet on my phone means I can quickly find most services I need in a specific neighbourhood when I'm feeling too shy to ask.

Re: A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

#92

Post by botker »

brc wrote: post #85
botker wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All government regulation is bad because none of us has the moral right to dictate the behavior of strangers. The aggregate gain in a quieter society that you describe is not an aggregate gain in happiness. It's a society in which we're silenced. Advertising is a form of speech, and we should all support free speech in all forms, lest we find ourselves silenced. Hacker News would be free of visual clutter if we all s…

Government regulation is not necessarily the dictating of behaviour to strangers. Every collective has it's own rules which are mostly designed to facilitate better running of the collective. This is true from the couple, the family, the business, the church, right on up to the planet as a whole. It is imperfect to assume that everyone will agree to get along and abide by the same rules. Therefore, you need a level o…

It's ironic that my anti-dogmatic stance (None of us has the right to dictate the behavior of strangers) came across as being dogmatic (Thou shalt not dictate the behavior of strangers).

Of course you're right that this is how the world works, from a Collectivist perspective. The Individualist perspective, which I tend towards, asserts that individual happiness is far more important than any attempt to "optimise behaviours".

  There are many choices, from outright dictatorship to various levels of democracy.
Tyranny of the majority is not inherently preferable to the tyranny of a dictator. The other end of the scale is self-ownership, which is not widely practiced today.

At the end of the day, my giant sign isn't harming anyone, and no one's forced to look at it. Restricted speech in the name of "cleanliness" is not acceptable in my book, but from a Collectivist perspective I guess it's alright.

If that stance invites ridicule, I accept -- just as long as we all remain mutually respectful about letting each other voice our opinions -- and that includes businesses and politicians.

Re: A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

#93

Post by botker »

rayiner wrote: post #84
botker wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not alone. If I want a place free of visual clutter then I head outside the city. But advertising is a form of speech, and without it I would feel silenced. Corporate propaganda is similar political graffiti: sure you can make a case against it, but the principle of free speech should outweigh all objections. So yeah, public advertising gives me the warm fuzzies too.

Do you live in the city?

Yes, I live in SF.

Re: A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

#94

Post by redler »

jxcole wrote: post #3

I would be interested to see before and after shots. Was their advertising problem really so bad or was just about the same as any other city? Edit: Found one: http://banbillboardblight.org/?page_id=4251

I'm so accustomed to seeing my own big city festooned with advertisements on almost every feasible surface, from stickers on lightpoles to 20,000 square foot billboards, that this almost looks fake. It's like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. But for advertising.

Re: A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

#95

Post by mattgreenrocks »

algorithms wrote: post #51

Wow. Just two days ago I wondered how the world would look like without being plastered with every kind of advertisment. I have to say I am so sick of going through my city and being bombarded with attention suckers from every direction. Same thing on the internet when I'm trying to read an article that is left aligned, makes up 20% of my monitor width and has blinking ads all around it. I AM SICK OF IT. I would love…

Without advertising, we'd forced to know ourselves better...and there are few things more terrifying than that.

Re: A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

#96

Post by jarek »

mekoka wrote: post #26

It's certainly an interesting concept if well applied, but I'm not sure it's suitable for all cities. For example, I have a hard time imagining Las Vegas without all the neons and signs.

This is because there's nothing else to look at in Las Vegas other than the neons.

Re: A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

#97

Post by Calamitous »

kawera wrote: post #16
jt2190 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure that the policy wasn't designed to transfer control of the outdoor advertising industry to a subset of advertisers? You know... ban advertising, and kill off the existing outdoor-ad only companies. Then reintroduce outdoor advertising, granting permits only to some group of "respectable" advertisers. I'm not saying that this is the case here, but it's a fair question, I think. [Edit: Here is an older but…

A fair question for sure but it wasn't the case in São Paulo.

Actually, another commenter has pointed out that the government has started displaying ads on buses and inside trains.

Re: A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

#98

Post by jarek »

botker wrote: post #92
brc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government regulation is not necessarily the dictating of behaviour to strangers. Every collective has it's own rules which are mostly designed to facilitate better running of the collective. This is true from the couple, the family, the business, the church, right on up to the planet as a whole. It is imperfect to assume that everyone will agree to get along and abide by the same rules. Therefore, you need a level o…

It's ironic that my anti-dogmatic stance ( None of us has the right to dictate the behavior of strangers ) came across as being dogmatic ( Thou shalt not dictate the behavior of strangers ). Of course you're right that this is how the world works, from a Collectivist perspective. The Individualist perspective, which I tend towards, asserts that individual happiness is far more important than any attempt to "optimise…

Serious question: do you consider it practically possible to live in an Individualist way in a modern city?

Re: A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

#99

Post by kawera »

Calamitous wrote: post #97
kawera wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fair question for sure but it wasn't the case in São Paulo.

Actually, another commenter has pointed out that the government has started displaying ads on buses and inside trains.

Not really. The ban doesn't apply to indoor ads so isn't applicable to the metro's trains or stations. As for the buses, they aren't displaying ads at all.

Re: A Happy, Flourishing City With No Advertising

#100

Post by kawera »

JerusaEnt wrote: post #25
jobu wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they didn't eliminate all signage, but it was rather dramatically reduced. I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis that had similar restrictions on advertising, and I can say that it is very nice as a resident. Now when I visit however, I find it difficult to locate some of the new businesses. I'm curious how this law has affected business revenue from tourists in Sao Paulo.

"So they didn't eliminate all signage, but it was rather dramatically reduced." I was actually paying attention to that. They allowed business to put up their own sign on their own residence, but not other ads. For example you see the Mcdonalds sign at the Mcdonalds, the Xerox sign at the Xerox, and the Shell sign at the Shell. But I didn't notice anything other then that.

And signs are also limited to a max of 2 or 4 square meters, depending on the size of the storefront.
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