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3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

reuters.com

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Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#91

Post by steve_adams_86 »

upon_drumhead wrote: post #82
DoreenMichele wrote: post #36

3M has been facing a raft of litigation that has prompted the move Generally speaking, toxic substances are only "cheap" due to externalizing many of the costs involved, like increased healthcare costs and lost productivity. If you do a thorough analysis of the costs of using such chemicals, they aren't cheap at all. Maybe someday humans will get that.

While it's not 3M, American Scandal (Podcast) did a season on a coverup by DuPont that's totally worth listening to. https://wondery.com/shows/american-scandal/season/41/

I haven’t done my homework but I find it strange that I hear so much about 3M while DuPont seems as bad — or worse — but it could simply be that I’ve read more about DuPont and I’m missing some inexhaustible list of atrocities 3M has committed.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#92

Post by Reason077 »

cityofdelusion wrote: post #39
p1necone wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience non stick pans are pretty awful, basically anything else is a better alternative. You can't get them hot enough to sear a steak properly without damaging the non stick coating, and the non stick coating is oleophobic which means that oil pools rather than spreading out so you can't get proper browning on anything even if you do cook it at an appropriate temp. Seasoned cast iron and carbon steel will…

I love my cast iron, stainless, and carbon steel pans, but calling them nonstick is a stretch. In fact, their stickiness is pretty much their valuable property in getting good browning on food. You can definitely cook delicate fish and scrambled eggs on say, cast iron, but you will either be scraping hard during clean up or using an absurd amount of oil to cook. I don't mind it myself, but its clear why nonstick is p…

I season my stainless steel pan with a few drops of oil, rubbed on with a paper towel. Very rarely do I have problems with anything sticking to it.

If I'm searing a steak or something at high heat, sure, it's going to leave some burnt-on marks, but if you add water and leave it simmering on minimum heat with a bit of baking soda for 15 minutes, pretty much anything will wipe off with no effort.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#93

Post by worldsayshi »

runnerup wrote: post #46
DoreenMichele wrote: post #36

3M has been facing a raft of litigation that has prompted the move Generally speaking, toxic substances are only "cheap" due to externalizing many of the costs involved, like increased healthcare costs and lost productivity. If you do a thorough analysis of the costs of using such chemicals, they aren't cheap at all. Maybe someday humans will get that.

I always thought that if our universe is actually a simulation, it's one of countless simulations trying to determine a solution to the Tragedy of the Commons. I suspect it's one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

Calculate the hidden cost. Slap a proportional tax on the products that cause the cost. Then split the tax income evenly to the population.

Is it really that hard or are we making it hard?

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#94

Post by smilekzs »

Reason077 wrote: post #85
jraby3 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try really hard not to use single use plastic. Especially plastic bags, plastic bottles, etc. This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days but will wait till I get home or to work to drink filtered water out of the tap. I went to Las Vegas about a year ago on a work trip and realized that the hotel I stayed at uses more plastic bottles in an hour than I would use in my lifetime with no though…

> "This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days" Why not carry a reusable water bottle? I have a great double-wall steel bottle (Hydro Flask), which is much better than a plastic bottle because it keeps water cold all day long and is basically indestructible. In most places I travel to it's not difficult to find sources of clean, cold water to refill it. Worst case, I will buy a large bottle of…

For me, there's always a metallic residual taste in my water whenever I use a stainless steel bottle. Got tired and returned to using normal mugs.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#95

Post by wirrbel »

jraby3 wrote: post #66
runnerup wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that if our universe is actually a simulation, it's one of countless simulations trying to determine a solution to the Tragedy of the Commons. I suspect it's one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

I try really hard not to use single use plastic. Especially plastic bags, plastic bottles, etc. This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days but will wait till I get home or to work to drink filtered water out of the tap. I went to Las Vegas about a year ago on a work trip and realized that the hotel I stayed at uses more plastic bottles in an hour than I would use in my lifetime with no though…

I recently mail-ordered rice, and because I wanted to buy two different styles I did not opt for the 3kg (like 6 lbs) bag but 2 packs of 1.8kg. Turns out 1.8kg were packed in 3 bags of 600g, so now I have 6 bags at 600g rice, that on first glance look like they are paper, but its actually plastic coated paper. Its really hard to avoid at times.

As for avoiding bags I have two wicker baskets like this https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/product/B009BMXLLI/ which means I can avoid shopping bags and they are actually quite convenient for carrying.

Tap water is luckily very drinkable in Germany (rumor has it that Coca-Cola company bottles it and sells it under their 'Bonaqua' brand).

However, there is so much out of our control with plastics that require regulation. Just think of the packaging.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#96

Post by Reason077 »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #72
p1necone wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience non stick pans are pretty awful, basically anything else is a better alternative. You can't get them hot enough to sear a steak properly without damaging the non stick coating, and the non stick coating is oleophobic which means that oil pools rather than spreading out so you can't get proper browning on anything even if you do cook it at an appropriate temp. Seasoned cast iron and carbon steel will…

I agree. I used nonstick pans for a long time. But once the coating starts to degrade, they're worse than decent-quality traditional cookware. Because food starts to stick, but you still can't use metal utensils to scrape it off. Now I just use stainless-steel or (rarely) cast iron, and I'm much happier. And it's even cheaper, long-term. A decent stainless-steel pan costs $50-$200 USD, but lasts approximately forever…

IKEA make a fantastic stainless steel[1] pan called "SENSUELL". Best pan I ever bought! Heavy indestructible construction, heats evenly, retains heat, cleans easily, can be placed under the grill, looks good, etc. The price has gone up recently, but it's still great value IMO!

[1] actually, like many high-end pans, it uses a 3-ply construction with an aluminium layer between two steel layers

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#97

Post by bayindirh »

smilekzs wrote: post #94
Reason077 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days" Why not carry a reusable water bottle? I have a great double-wall steel bottle (Hydro Flask), which is much better than a plastic bottle because it keeps water cold all day long and is basically indestructible. In most places I travel to it's not difficult to find sources of clean, cold water to refill it. Worst case, I will buy a large bottle of…

For me, there's always a metallic residual taste in my water whenever I use a stainless steel bottle. Got tired and returned to using normal mugs.

Which brand(s) did you use? I use Contigo, Stanley, Alaaddin and (old) Starbucks tumblers and bottles, and they leave no taste in the water.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#99

Post by worldsayshi »

worldsayshi wrote: post #93
runnerup wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that if our universe is actually a simulation, it's one of countless simulations trying to determine a solution to the Tragedy of the Commons. I suspect it's one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

Calculate the hidden cost. Slap a proportional tax on the products that cause the cost. Then split the tax income evenly to the population. Is it really that hard or are we making it hard?

I mean it's hard in the same way as converting from a dictatorship to a democracy is hard. There's a huge political transaction cost. And then you'll wonder what took you so long.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#100

Post by SoftTalker »

wjnc wrote: post #76
jraby3 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try really hard not to use single use plastic. Especially plastic bags, plastic bottles, etc. This frequently means I’ll be extremely thirst throughout some days but will wait till I get home or to work to drink filtered water out of the tap. I went to Las Vegas about a year ago on a work trip and realized that the hotel I stayed at uses more plastic bottles in an hour than I would use in my lifetime with no though…

Dehydration is more of a risk to you than the environmental risks you marginally save on others. Still I applaud the effort since the economists view is too restricted. Get a stainless steel container and hydrate for a lifetime.

Stainless steel containers are often lined with plastic, since people don't like the metallic taste that the steel imparts.
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