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Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

pouria.dev

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Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#91

Post by yieldcrv »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #3

> During the past 5–6 years of my JavaScript experience, every time I wanted to go back to any of my projects—from tiny to big, server-side or front-end—there was always a challenge, a problem to tackle or an obstacle to overcome before I can update or sometimes even just run my program. why i moved mostly from writing node cmd tools to using bash. don't need to go on a bunch of side missions every time i run npm ins…

nvm is my solution to this

It isolate and pins npm installs so that the environment is the same in the future without messing up your main system

Your projects also need to consider pinning their dependencies to a specific version

Other languages/frameworks with package managers have similar concepts

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#92

Post by iso1631 »

brushfoot wrote: post #60

There's no free lunch. JavaScript has the largest package ecosystem in the world. It's great for finding "free" UI components or server libraries for projects, but you pay for it in maintenance costs. That said, I don't think it's as bad as this article makes it out to be. There's this kind of maintenance in a traditional server-rendered Django/Rails app, too, on both ends. You can self-host your JS scripts or fetch…

I've got perl web apps that haven't been touched for 15 years (aside from a single change from a flash to in the template) that still perform their function perfectly well

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#93

Post by [deleted] »

hutzlibu wrote: post #51
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't use js because it is the hot new thing, but rather because it is simple . It infamously isn't. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

Hm, video arguments are not my take, I did not watch it (yet), but in either case this seems to be opinion. But of course, javascript is so simple, that it is not suitable for complex problems. No (sane) person would ever claim, that it is the right language for every problem.

[deleted]

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#94

Post by cxr »

yieldcrv wrote: post #91
5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #3

> During the past 5–6 years of my JavaScript experience, every time I wanted to go back to any of my projects—from tiny to big, server-side or front-end—there was always a challenge, a problem to tackle or an obstacle to overcome before I can update or sometimes even just run my program. why i moved mostly from writing node cmd tools to using bash. don't need to go on a bunch of side missions every time i run npm ins…

nvm is my solution to this It isolate and pins npm installs so that the environment is the same in the future without messing up your main system Your projects also need to consider pinning their dependencies to a specific version Other languages/frameworks with package managers have similar concepts

> Your projects also need to consider pinning their dependencies to a specific version

At that point, you should consider just using your version control system to handle versioning instead of trying to route around it, poorly.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#96

Post by parasubvert »

cduzz wrote: post #71
csmpltn wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "why i moved mostly from writing node cmd tools to using bash" You literally moved from one unmaintainable mess of an ecosystem (Node), to what is arguably an even worse unmaintainable mess of an ecosystem (bash). Glad to hear it wasn't Perl though. For self-contained little tools or hobby projects that can run cross-platform, use Python. For anything beyond that - use a proper strongly typed language (C, C++, C#,…

Only use python if you plan on compiling it with something like docker or podman to pickle your resulting stew in epoxy for all time. Otherwise you'll still be in some dependency heck as you run down why your library updated doesn't work (oh, switched to TLS encryption; that's good I guess) or you're thing uses v2 and everything now uses v3. golang, rust, at least, make a static binary out of the gate. In 8 years it'…

It is interesting that the data science and ML folks are willing to weather Python’s dependency mess Vs. the huge momentum Golang and (increasingly) Rust have built around their static binary philosophy.

Perhaps this is the future of Kubernetes , to be the only thing brave enough to run epoxied globs of .NET, Java and Python.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#97

Post by AgentME »

Zpalmtree wrote: post #58
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't use js because it is the hot new thing, but rather because it is simple . It infamously isn't. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

Most of these are 'gotchas' that rarely happen in real code because they're all due to implicit type conversions

Yeah, nothing there affects regular programs even a tenth as bad as say quoting rules and space handling affect average Bash shell scripts.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#98

Post by pjmlp »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #86
323 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the GUI civil wars at Microsoft The wars are done. Look at what Microsoft actually uses for GUIs, not what they recommend. All the new Microsoft apps are written in Electron.

> All the new Microsoft apps are written in Electron. Is this why the new calculator app takes over 5 seconds to show up on screen?

Nope, that is the UWP security container most likely.

https://github.com/microsoft/calculator

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#99

Post by freilanzer »

csmpltn wrote: post #69
5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #3

> During the past 5–6 years of my JavaScript experience, every time I wanted to go back to any of my projects—from tiny to big, server-side or front-end—there was always a challenge, a problem to tackle or an obstacle to overcome before I can update or sometimes even just run my program. why i moved mostly from writing node cmd tools to using bash. don't need to go on a bunch of side missions every time i run npm ins…

> "why i moved mostly from writing node cmd tools to using bash" You literally moved from one unmaintainable mess of an ecosystem (Node), to what is arguably an even worse unmaintainable mess of an ecosystem (bash). Glad to hear it wasn't Perl though. For self-contained little tools or hobby projects that can run cross-platform, use Python. For anything beyond that - use a proper strongly typed language (C, C++, C#,…

*Statically typed, not strongly typed

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#100

Post by parasubvert »

krapp wrote: post #68
royletron wrote: post #32

Meh, I feel a little like this is dunking on Javascript for the sake of dunking on Javascript. Ever done the same with a PHP app? Go? Python?! They all have issues with versioning and this is why there are a good set of tools to deal with it - pyenv/nvm etc. It's like they've listed all the good reasons to use JS and then kicked it because it's cool to hate on JS. Hi, I am Darren, and I love JS - I will no longer be…

>Hi, I am Darren, and I love JS - I will no longer be ashamed by it. Don't make a programming language part of your identity. It's pathetic. No one is "dunking on Javascript for the sake of dunking on Javascript." PHP, Go and other languages don't have these issues, or at best don't have them at the same frequency, nor are they as catastrophic when they occur. No PHP dev ever woke up to discover the entire universe w…

My dude, have you lived in the tech (or otaku) community for long?

Making a piece of tech (or any media) part of your identity is a tale as old as time, and arguably getting worse.

I mean, you’re right, it is pathetic, and we need to collectively grow up. But you might as well be saying “be a well adjusted person, eat well and exercise”. We are so insecure and needy that we ascribe our self worth to a tech fad or piece of media or media figure. But it’s the core problem we have in western society today: geek/otaku culture, with its highs and lows, has gone mainstream. We are so comfortable and abundant with basic resources that we are bored and unsatisfied with our status and function in society and desperate to fill that gap with something to geek out on.

We live in a world where Lennart Poeterring gets death threads over systemd, the Golang maintainers get threats over generics, TV show runners get death threats when they change a character’s story arc. And politically there’s lots of folks willing to eject democracy so their adopted club can rule for eternity. Is it all for the lulz?

Anyway I took this on a tangent but… really, “I can’t believe you use that programming language” has always been bad as far as I can remember (at least 35-40 years).

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