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The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

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Re: The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

#91
post #76

On the balance, aren't the risks still heavily against smoking? So what's the point of promoting one benefit of smoking when you still want to advise everyone to stop or never start smoking? This article suggests a coverup, but as the author points out, there's no shortage of science showing that smoking is associated with a lower chance of getting Covid. The author is really complaining about the interpretations and…

> So all he's actually complaining about is the lack of nuance in the expression of the conclusions.

That's not what happened, though. The article claims that public health authorities, as well as random doctors, were denouncing these studies, and were claiming that they were a myth. Not just that they disagreed with conclusions. (And even then, merely disagreeing with conclusions sounds pretty dishonest.)

I think it's fair to say something like: "Yes, some researchers have drawn conclusions that smoking can help protect you from COVID infection. However, the health risks associated with smoking can be much worse than a COVID infection, and there are many other ways you can safely reduce your risk of COVID infection."

But instead, they said: "Research? Yeah, that research is garbage and the people involved are completely wrong." If the article here is to be believed, that's a flat-out lie.

> You're just going to end up convincing certain people to start smoking

I get it, but I think the cat was already out of that bag. I'm sure some people did start smoking based on these studies, regardless of what public health orgs said. And yes, maybe more people might have done the same if they'd acknowledged the potential correctness of the studies, but still urged people not to smoke. But I think that's an outcome we just have to accept; lying about scientific evidence hurts the credibility of these organizations in a way much worse than a possible increase of smoking-related health problems. And, personally, if I was in on one of those decision-making meetings, I wouldn't be comfortable lying to the public in that way. I would hope I'd have the stones to resign rather than do that.

Re: The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

#92
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equally we have many studies showing that vitamin D helps to reduce risk from covid (hint: it doesn't). More studies show that ivermectin has a positive effect in covid patients. In fact, ivermectin has no effect or has only a very weak effect in certain patients. In medicine observational studies suffer from certain problems that are hard to overcome. The biggest is that the groups are not equal. For example, smoker…

There is very good evidence that vitamin D in general helps your immune response. It may be that there is a second factor here (another commenter suggested that UVA light was also involved in this process), but the evidence in favor of boosting your immune response by getting sunlight every day is pretty conclusive. I would be surprised if this study was a vindication of vitamin D, though, rather than a false positiv…

Vitamin D is obviously necessary, mostly for bone health, but any study of supplementing it for other purposes to people without any symptoms of deficiency have been disappointing.

Re: The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the incorrect claim that “back then Big Tech’s fact-checkers were still describing claims about SARS-CoV-2 being airborne and face masks preventing infection as ‘misleading’”. This is a not an incorrect claim, it is a correct claim.

Both the original SARS and coronaviruses in general are known to spread via droplets in the air, and from the beginning folks assumed this was one way SARS-COV-2 spread. What was unknown was how long the virus could remain viable after the droplets landed on surfaces. If it is a long time, then mishandling a soiled mask could easily undo any benefit of wearing it. This is the same reason people were washing their gro…

The issue of an airborne disease is not just a matter of droplets, but whether infectious particles are aerosolized such that they hang in the air for hours. The 6 feet social distancing rule only makes sense in the context of droplet based, non-aerosol transmission. It was only after more than a year into the pandemic that CDC acknowledged that COVID is airborne and updated their guidance.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/07/health/coronavirus-airbor...

https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu...

Re: The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

#94
post #7

Completely anecdotal, but I got Covid ~2 weeks after quitting smoking (3 or 4 cigarettes a day), having had avoided it for months. Essentially everyone I know, save my brother who smokes heavily, has gotten it.

Yeah I never got it... I was careful but never as careful as anybody else. In fact subpar care for many...

Re: The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

#95
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the original SARS and coronaviruses in general are known to spread via droplets in the air, and from the beginning folks assumed this was one way SARS-COV-2 spread. What was unknown was how long the virus could remain viable after the droplets landed on surfaces. If it is a long time, then mishandling a soiled mask could easily undo any benefit of wearing it. This is the same reason people were washing their gro…

It was apparent very early that there were spread patterns only explainable by aerosols. The Diamond Princess was the earliest publicized example, with cases occurring onboard despite isolation in cabins. Japanese experts understood the lesson immediately and implemented a "three C's" approach to counter airborne spread: avoid close contact, closed spaces, and crowds. Western governments and experts and the WHO inste…

This is true but a more subtle distinction about size of droplet.

If the virus spread primarily by aerosols then cloth and surgical masks would have little preventative value. But we know that they do have preventative value.

The reality as understood today is a mix of droplet sizes. Larger droplets carry more load and hence more risk but work over a smaller radius. But smaller droplets can carry enough load to infect; especially since later variants seem more infectious (i.e. require a smaller load to gain a foothold).

Re: The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

#96
The author's framing of the issue as speech suppression is, in my eyes, far more interesting than the study and backing evidence, and certainly more interesting than contra-claims about acquiring COVID here in this thread.

Yet here we are barking at the moon about vitamin D and playing jump to conclusions by forcibly cramming words into the post re: taking up smoking.

The point isn't to start smoking because this post isn't directly about COVID, the point is that inconvenient yet possible truths can be crushed by our digital overlords.

Re: The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

#97

Author compiled a lot of studies on his web log: https://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.com/2021/08/smoking-and... The studies do appear to show that smoking cigarettes is correlated with a lower probability of getting the Covid, for a lot of different definitions of "getting the Covid." They also appear to be, by eyeball aggregate, inconclusive as to whether the risk of dying from the Covid is higher or lower for smok…

> on his web log

Also called blog, since ~20 years.

Re: The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

#98

Smoking cover up? Goodness. Let’s assume you’re right and smoking prevents Covid. The answer would be to get everyone to start smoking??? Get everyone hooked on nicotine? If the goal is to prevent Covid, masks are better—they’re cheap, easy, and have no side effects. (Which drives people mad, but imagine telling them to start smoking instead. Actually I could see the anti-maskers firing up a box a day lol).

This is such a horribly immature statement to make. There are many chemicals in cigarettes that can be utilized to either prevent or understand how Covid infects the human body, and what we can do to stop it. The nicotonic receptors are highly utilized by the immune system. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11062-007-0037-2 I’m really getting tired of this lack of creative thought in thinking about health an…

Please make your substantive points without swipes. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Edit: we've had to ask you this several times already:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33568920 (Nov 2022)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31632010 (June 2022)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31239687 (May 2022)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570715 (March 2022)

If you continue doing this we're going to have to ban you. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules, we'd appreciate it.

Re: The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

#99
This thread will surely devolve into a general repository for COVID contrarian angst, but the broader point in this article is an interesting one. I would summarize it by saying there's an asymmetry in evidence demanded for a claim based on whether or not it agrees with the conclusion obtained by reasoning from first principles.

The author seems to be saying that rigorous, peer-reviewed, observational studies should be the end of the discussion, or at least the starting point. I'm not sure I agree. Given the significant limitations present in all medical studies like this, I think it could make some sense to give a lot more weight to the conclusion reached through a fundamental understanding of how the human body works. Some hesitancy to overturn that conclusion based on a handful of inevitably flawed studies seems prudent to me, or at least not crazy.

I'm reminded of the current tensions around "evidence-based practice" where medicine is transformed into essentially flowcharts that get continuously updated according to peer-reviewed research. It sounds like a good idea, but it's been somewhat controversial since that's not how medicine has traditionally been practiced. It significantly reduces a doctor's ability to problem solve through reasoning, which has some benefits but also some clear downsides as well.

Re: The great Covid and smoking cover-up?

#100

I immediately check out whenever someone says "Google it and see what comes up" as "evidence" proving some conspiracy. Also, this is weird hill to die on. This dude has amassed a mega-blog post with a ton of aggregated studies - it's not a small amount of work. Anecdotally my only family member who regularly smokes just got COVID.

Yes, and I've so far gone through the initial double dose vaccination, a booster a year ago, and the new bivalent vaccine this fall. But I've still had COVID at least once (possibly twice) since my first vaccination.

Do I think the vaccine did nothing? Of course not. Just as someone who agrees with the smoking-protects-against-COVID research probably wouldn't think smoking did nothing, even if they eventually got infected.

The studies didn't say smoking made it impossible to get COVID, just that it reduces the likelihood. Just like the vaccines won't 100% prevent it.

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