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PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

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Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#91

Post by qbasic_forever »

Jolter wrote: post #83
qbasic_forever wrote: post #66

Wow there's definitely a money making opportunity to hang on to and resell any goretex shakedry (single layer goretex, Columbia had a similar thing called out-dri). There's really nothing else like it that's as light weight and water proof yet breathable as it was. People paid a premium for it when it was in production. The value is going to skyrocket if it's not available new anymore.

I don’t think the material lasts long enough to have multiple users. My experience of ptfe and related chemicals is that they wash out and the material degrades over time worth wear, so they don’t stay water-repellent very long. If they didn’t degrade quickly, they wouldn’t be such a threat to the environment. Edit: Sorry, I didn’t mean PTFE above but PFC.

Goretex isn't a coating though, at least with their membrane stuff like shakedry. The fibers themselves are PTFE. It doesn't wash away over time. As I understand it the environmental risk with these jackets is from the production process and PTFE use there. Once it's a membrane it's inert and stable.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#93

Post by Jolter »

hammock wrote: post #41
wyre wrote: post #13

For anyone not familiar with what makes Shakedry so revolutionary is its ability to be waterproof, highly breathable, and incredibly lightweight. Its weight and breathability make it incredible for active sports like cycling or running. These jackets weigh around 100-150g depending on features and size and can pack into the pocket of a cycling Jersey, all while being waterproof and preventing the athlete from overhea…

Shakedry is just a bare goretex membrane, as far as I know…aka without the outer shell fabric. Not sure it’s revolutionary. You reduce weight and bulk by eliminating the outer fabric but at the expense of abrasion resistance. Why it works for road cycling but not much else.

If the article is right, Shakedry is also heavily treated with perflourated toxic stuff. On the outside, presumably.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#94

Post by alostpuppy »

bushbaba wrote: post #87
blindriver wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ditched them a while ago as well. I only use cast iron or stainless steel and it makes me wonder why I ever bothered with non-stick before.

Because in the early 2000s there was a war on natural fats. Nutritionists declared all fat bad. We now know that to not be the case. Your stainless steel, high carbon steel, and cast iron pans require using a small amount of oil/butter to have nonstick cooking properties.

I have trouble with stainless. What’s the trick? Do you use cast iron for skillets and stainless for slice pans?

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#95

Post by _0w8t »

CydeWeys wrote: post #19
elric wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading something about the trillions of chiken bones we discard annually are something of a problem. "The dose makes the poison" seems to apply to the environment as much as it does to the individual.

Curious what the problem is? Animals with bones have existed for hundreds of millions of years. The environment knows what to do with them. PFCs by contrast do not exist naturally in the world and they act as a toxin in the environment.

The problem is the concentration that nature has never experienced before. Alcohol is natural but in concentrations that required distilling is a poison.

Or in Norway it turned out throwing into fjords pieces of stones that are a by-product of quarry is very problematic. It releases into water copper and other metals within years poisoning plants and fish. Through natural weathering it takes thousands of years to release the same amount.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#96

Post by Jolter »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #91
Jolter wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the material lasts long enough to have multiple users. My experience of ptfe and related chemicals is that they wash out and the material degrades over time worth wear, so they don’t stay water-repellent very long. If they didn’t degrade quickly, they wouldn’t be such a threat to the environment. Edit: Sorry, I didn’t mean PTFE above but PFC.

Goretex isn't a coating though, at least with their membrane stuff like shakedry. The fibers themselves are PTFE. It doesn't wash away over time. As I understand it the environmental risk with these jackets is from the production process and PTFE use there. Once it's a membrane it's inert and stable.

Sorry, I meant PFC. I’ve edited the comment.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#97

Post by epgui »

acdha wrote: post #48
lotsofpulp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the fact that something is man made a problem?

Often, yes: novel compounds can have side effects which take years to understand (e.g. DDT‘a impact on bird populations lasted past the point where its effectiveness was rapidly tapering) and depending on what characteristics something was picked for you can end up with something which doesn’t biodegrade and is thus a long-term problem if it doesn’t turn out to be harmless.

The fact that these are man-made is irrelevant to their harmful effects and framing it as if it was contributes to the persistence of the natural fallacy.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#98

Post by DoingIsLearning »

blindriver wrote: post #63
hashtag-til wrote: post #54

Since I watched the movie “Dark Waters”, I’m trying to avoid those PFO(A|E) as much as I can. Threw all non-stick pans away and learnt how to cook with just cast iron or inox pans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Waters_(2019_film)

I ditched them a while ago as well. I only use cast iron or stainless steel and it makes me wonder why I ever bothered with non-stick before.

Scotch pancakes.

Scotch pancakes is still the one thing I can't cook without non-stick.

If anybody has any tips that doesn't include half a kilo of lard, then I am very interested.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#99

Post by Our_Benefactors »

alostpuppy wrote: post #94
bushbaba wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the early 2000s there was a war on natural fats. Nutritionists declared all fat bad. We now know that to not be the case. Your stainless steel, high carbon steel, and cast iron pans require using a small amount of oil/butter to have nonstick cooking properties.

I have trouble with stainless. What’s the trick? Do you use cast iron for skillets and stainless for slice pans?

The trick is get the pan hot (not smoking hot, you’ve preheated too much), then put 1-2tbsp butter or cooking oil in the pan and spread it around. It should sizzle a bit and then mostly disappear, leaving behind a nonstick coating.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#100

Post by CameronNemo »

kragen wrote: post #81
noja wrote: post #18

Will the replacement for PFC be something very similar that is equally dangerous?

no, there just isn't a replacement for perfluorocarbons, that's all perfluorocarbons themselves are among the least dangerous materials in the world, but the materials used to make them are very nasty indeed

TFA mentions Gore is putting a lot of money into R&D for PFA alternatives. They may fail, not sure if that is what you meant. But they will certainly try.
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