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Opening the North American charging standard

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Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#91

Post by kgermino »

zaptrem wrote: post #33

Awesome. This should be a world-wide standard. NACS (Tesla) VS CCS is like USB-A 1.0 vs USB-C with Power Delivery: CCS is unbelievably slow and clunky to the point where it might turn people off wanting an EV once they experience the slow and clunkiness.

Is CCS really that slow and clunky? I don't have direct experience with it but everyone I know who has says it's at least as easy to manage as a gas nozzle.

On speed, CCS supports faster charging than an Supercharger built to date so if you had a bad experience with charging speed it was the car or charger, not CCS

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#92

Post by gibolt »

maxsilver wrote: post #60
wilg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a good strategy given how people are standardizing on CCS1 in NA. They're embracing CCS1 to a large degree, offering adapters for plugging your car into a CCS charger and allowing CCS cars to charge at Superchargers. But the connector is definitely better, so they may as well open it up in the hopes that people adopt the nicer plug and then they won't have to change it after all. Basically no reason not…

> But the (Tesla) connector is definitely better, I'm not convinced of that. Tesla's connector is thinner and lighter yes absolutely. But Tesla is also weaker and less reliable \ less fault tolerant than standard EV charger cables (See the dreaded EP307 / lock error, something that can't even happen with a normal EV CCS charger) I definitely think it's preferable for CCS win, as it's the safest, most durable, most co…

Not sure where any of these suggestions come from. Superchargers have the highest utilization and uptime in the industry.

Thinner means more accessible/easier to use. CCS is wholly unreliable if it is even slightly at the wrong angle, which is common due to the bulk of the plug and cable.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#93

Post by rnk »

maxsilver wrote: post #60
wilg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a good strategy given how people are standardizing on CCS1 in NA. They're embracing CCS1 to a large degree, offering adapters for plugging your car into a CCS charger and allowing CCS cars to charge at Superchargers. But the connector is definitely better, so they may as well open it up in the hopes that people adopt the nicer plug and then they won't have to change it after all. Basically no reason not…

> But the (Tesla) connector is definitely better, I'm not convinced of that. Tesla's connector is thinner and lighter yes absolutely. But Tesla is also weaker and less reliable \ less fault tolerant than standard EV charger cables (See the dreaded EP307 / lock error, something that can't even happen with a normal EV CCS charger) I definitely think it's preferable for CCS win, as it's the safest, most durable, most co…

The tesla plug has a decade of successful heavy use behind it, and it doesn't have a history of failing despite being the most used ev charging system and plug in the world (comparing to the ccs standards around the us and the world). You'll need to provide some references to point to tesla problems. On the other hand I have a brand new us ccs car and every time I go to a public charger it's an open question whether it will work (and yes there are a variety of problems). CCS charging is less reliable, it's a common thing for people to complain about ccs charging problems. With due respect, I think you are wrong.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#94

Post by Dylan16807 »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #22

This is starting to feel like... the XKCD meme about too many standards. Everyone in North America that isn't Tesla: CCS1 Telsa in North America: NACS Everyone including Tesla in Europe: CCS2 Everyone in Japan: CHAdeMO Everyone in China: GB/T

GB/T should probably be ignored as China being different on purpose.

And CHAdeMO just seems bad compared to the competition.

If you exclude those it becomes a lot simpler.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#95

Post by gibolt »

akozak wrote: post #79
wilg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a good strategy given how people are standardizing on CCS1 in NA. They're embracing CCS1 to a large degree, offering adapters for plugging your car into a CCS charger and allowing CCS cars to charge at Superchargers. But the connector is definitely better, so they may as well open it up in the hopes that people adopt the nicer plug and then they won't have to change it after all. Basically no reason not…

Doesn't really matter even if it's slightly technically better. We are WAY too late in the game here (US is already deploying federal funds!), and they should have engaged with open standards a decade ago.

This implies they didn't, which is false.

CCS was released slightly before the Model S (first to use Tesla's connector). Both were developed at the same time. At the time, there was no viable alternative for Tesla. Now, there is no reason to revert to a significantly subpar option.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#96

Post by mike_d »

gibolt wrote: post #42
modeless wrote: post #35

I wish they had gotten more serious about this sooner. They had talked about offering the plug and network to other manufacturers before but there wasn't any movement on it. I expect that now it's too late and we'll be stuck with terrible CCS forever, but I'd be happy to be wrong.

Tesla is still >70% of EVs in the U.S. and Aptera has already adopted their plug (hopefully shipping soon). We are still within bounds of choosing the superior connector. It isn't too late like in Europe, especially since US bound vehicles are already using a different plug than their European counterparts

"Our forecasts suggest that Tesla’s market share will decline from 70% in 2021 to (an estimated) 11% by 2025" -Bank of America

The major auto manufactures are on track to have 60% of all new cars EVs by 2026. Tesla just can't compete with that volume. They need to start getting ready for the new standard now, not pulling this nonsense.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#97

Post by kelnos »

akozak wrote: post #79
wilg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a good strategy given how people are standardizing on CCS1 in NA. They're embracing CCS1 to a large degree, offering adapters for plugging your car into a CCS charger and allowing CCS cars to charge at Superchargers. But the connector is definitely better, so they may as well open it up in the hopes that people adopt the nicer plug and then they won't have to change it after all. Basically no reason not…

Doesn't really matter even if it's slightly technically better. We are WAY too late in the game here (US is already deploying federal funds!), and they should have engaged with open standards a decade ago.

Yup, I don't think it matters which one is technically better. They both get the job done, and one is an actual standard that many car makers have agreed upon -- "many" meaning "every single one except Tesla".

If Tesla wanted theirs to be standard, they should have made this move years ago. They missed the boat, and are now scrambling to avoid having to change their own sockets.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#98

Post by rnk »

sneak wrote: post #88
akozak wrote: post #74

Tesla is at least 5 years late here, maybe more like 10. All of the US federal funds will likely go to CCS now because they stuck to the proprietary network strategy, despite the OBVIOUS and natural social utility from an open industry-wide standard and charging networks open to all. For reference here is the DOT's NPRM from June laying out the proposed requirements for states to receive federal funds from the infras…

From the article: > NACS vehicles outnumber CCS two-to-one, and Tesla's Supercharging network has 60% more NACS posts than all the CCS-equipped networks combined. This suggests to me it’s not Tesla that’s late. If anything is a society-wide EV standard in North America, it’s the Tesla plug.

Tesla has been the defacto standard, yes. But their lead has been declining. All the other ev car drivers would have been better off if they could use tesla charging stations, since the entire industry is basically terrible except for tesla superchargers. With tesla saying they'll finally support ccs cars in the us I think ccs will win. You have to point to the clever infrastructure bills in congress, I think that money is what pulled tesla through to supporting ccs (eventually).

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#99

Post by nomel »

akozak wrote: post #79
wilg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a good strategy given how people are standardizing on CCS1 in NA. They're embracing CCS1 to a large degree, offering adapters for plugging your car into a CCS charger and allowing CCS cars to charge at Superchargers. But the connector is definitely better, so they may as well open it up in the hopes that people adopt the nicer plug and then they won't have to change it after all. Basically no reason not…

Doesn't really matter even if it's slightly technically better. We are WAY too late in the game here (US is already deploying federal funds!), and they should have engaged with open standards a decade ago.

What "game" are they too late for? The number of ports is the game, and the reason my next EV will be a Tesla.

It's very difficult to find charge stations that aren't Tesla, and when you do, they're often used for general parking.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#100

Post by hedora »

sneak wrote: post #88
akozak wrote: post #74

Tesla is at least 5 years late here, maybe more like 10. All of the US federal funds will likely go to CCS now because they stuck to the proprietary network strategy, despite the OBVIOUS and natural social utility from an open industry-wide standard and charging networks open to all. For reference here is the DOT's NPRM from June laying out the proposed requirements for states to receive federal funds from the infras…

From the article: > NACS vehicles outnumber CCS two-to-one, and Tesla's Supercharging network has 60% more NACS posts than all the CCS-equipped networks combined. This suggests to me it’s not Tesla that’s late. If anything is a society-wide EV standard in North America, it’s the Tesla plug.

The way I read the "two to one" number is that Tesla's market share in NA is collapsing.

Even if competitors decide to use the Tesla standard, it'll be a few years before they ship it. By then, Tesla's current 66% share of deployed vehicles will almost certainly have dropped to less than 50%.

Also, Musk said they're opening up superchargers to CCS soon, so car buyers like me don't think the Tesla connector is a differentiator any more.

Having said that, I have a CCS car, and charge station availability is totally fine, at least in the parts of California where superchargers exist.

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