Live data from Hacker News

An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

katedowninglaw.com

91–100 of 182 posts

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#91

A hypothetical question: imagine a filmmaker, who had studied a lot of obviously copyrighted movies by famous renowned directors. This means he has trained his neural network using their copyrighted licensed content. Does he breach copyright when he composes and films a scene? Are visual quotes copyright theft? Homages? Did George Lucas infringe copyright when he was borrowing compositions from "Triumph of the will"?

I see this argument over and over again, and it is so flawed that it is hard to bear. There is no equal sign between a person and a program. There is also that thing called "scale" that is critical to the interpretation of the action. Is eating meat fine? - maybe. Is eating all animals OK? - Hmm...

The question is not whether a person is equal to a program.

The question is whether a person is doing the same as Copilot for this particular case, i.e. reading source code to learn.

You have not really given any argument why this is not the case. Or maybe your reference to scale? So only because Copilot has read more code than a human possibly could, that makes it different? But why exactly is reading a bit of code fine w.r.t. copyright, but reading more code suddenly violates copyright?

Note that the reason why Copilot needs more code to learn is just because the learning currently is not as efficient as for humans.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument over and over again, and it is so flawed that it is hard to bear. There is no equal sign between a person and a program. There is also that thing called "scale" that is critical to the interpretation of the action. Is eating meat fine? - maybe. Is eating all animals OK? - Hmm...

> Is eating meat fine? - maybe. Is eating all animals OK? - Hmm... This argument is hardly less flawed than the one you are criticizing. And you statement that 'there is no equal sign ...' is also unconvincing, as we're not equating these two, but the process of learning, which is quite similar.

You're right. One is eating meat, the other is slaughtering all wildlife in an industrial meatgrinder.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#93

Hmmm. I'm interested in the GitHub ToS, which (if I understand correctly) basically says that GitHub and it's affiliates (MS) can use anything you post on GitHub to improve their service. What if I build an AGPL licenced service, using GitHub to coordinate development. According to the ToS MS could offer a version my service because I posted the code on GitHub, and they are using it to improve their service to me. Ac…

An interesting though experiment is how keen Microsoft would be to allow Copilot to be trained on the Office or Windows source code. If the output is truly free of copyright from its training materials then if not, why not?

Why would they do that, regardless of whether the output could be restricted via Copyright or not? Also, this case isn't about copyright, as the lawyer clearly explains.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#94

Has anyone produced a legally watertight license or clause for other licenses that prevents code being used for training of copilot-like services?

The article addresses this in a number of ways.

For example,

> That rings a bit like the Facebook memes of yesteryear promising users that if they just copy and paste these magical sentences onto their timelines, then Facebook won’t be able to do something or other with their data or accounts.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#95
post #63

A hypothetical question: imagine a filmmaker, who had studied a lot of obviously copyrighted movies by famous renowned directors. This means he has trained his neural network using their copyrighted licensed content. Does he breach copyright when he composes and films a scene? Are visual quotes copyright theft? Homages? Did George Lucas infringe copyright when he was borrowing compositions from "Triumph of the will"?

Just because machine learning uses the word “learning” doesn’t mean it “learns” in the same way a human mind does — that analogy is doing a lot of load bearing in your argument, and needs proving why the program’s nature of creative remixing (for lack of a better word) is the same as a human’s. Right now it seems like you’re just reusing the same word for two phenomena we don’t understand, and therefore claiming they…

But effectively learning here really means the same thing: Based on the input (source code), you will adapt the synaptic weights between neurons, in a similar way for humans and for the artificial neural networks. Of course, it's not exactly the same. There are some differences in the details, and the artificial neural network is really much more simplified, and thus also less efficient at learning. But why is this relevant for the copyright question?

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#97
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because machine learning uses the word “learning” doesn’t mean it “learns” in the same way a human mind does — that analogy is doing a lot of load bearing in your argument, and needs proving why the program’s nature of creative remixing (for lack of a better word) is the same as a human’s. Right now it seems like you’re just reusing the same word for two phenomena we don’t understand, and therefore claiming they…

But effectively learning here really means the same thing: Based on the input (source code), you will adapt the synaptic weights between neurons, in a similar way for humans and for the artificial neural networks. Of course, it's not exactly the same. There are some differences in the details, and the artificial neural network is really much more simplified, and thus also less efficient at learning. But why is this r…

I can easily write an simplistic suggestion algorithm by doing the following:

Hash the content. If the content has been viewed by the user in the past, halve the numerical hash value. Then sort the list.

Doing this to a music list will create a list that is biased toward music the user has listened to before but will still seem random enough to look like intelligent suggestion that the system has learned to identify. It is just math that mimics learning.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#98
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your magic box is not a film maker and the inputs you are encoding with it are verbatim file content. Said content belonging to someone else. Please study the series of events that unfolded in the music industry after folk begun incorporating recordings made by other artists in their own work and proceeded to sell the result. Spoiler: The deeply nuanced question of feeding a mechanical recording through a series of c…

> Said content belonging to someone else. Is CoPilot just trained on OSS, or on private repos too?

Microsoft decided to only use public available repos. Their don't use their own private code or that of other companies private code, for quite obvious reasons.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong! At the point of creation something is granted copyright. Publishers in literature and music are right assholes who’ve created this system. Little middle men rent seeking. It does need reform but it is for the creators that’s why it’s tied to the creator and not date of publication. Fix your perspective buckaroo

> It does need reform but it is for the creators No, under the US Constitution it is for a specified public benefit as its purpose, the private benefit is a mechanism to achieve that. Under the Statute of Anne, it was nominally for creators (but this was lobbied for by printers after the expiration of earlier laws, and they were the prime beneficiaries in practice.) The earlier laws were explicitly for printers.

This great to know, though I'm having trouble referencing the earlier laws, can you post a link please?

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#100
> It looks a lot more like trolling if an otherwise incredibly useful and productivity-boosting technology is being stymied by people who want to receive payouts for a lack of meaningless attributions.

This one sentence threw off my entire opinion of the article as it demonstrates the author's clear bias in favor of Copilot, not just specifically in this case but in principle.

Legal opinion on Copilot and generative AI in general hinges entirely on metaphors. If the AI is understood to behave like a human being building knowledge and drawing from it for inspiration, Copilot is just another way to write code. But we've already established legal precedent that machines can not hold copyright, which suggests that they can not be deemed to be creative, which could be used to argue that they are therefore just creating an inventory of copyright works and creating mechanical mashups.

The author's dismissal also ignores that this would not JUST result in attribution. If Copilot indexed copyleft code and were required to provide attribution when using this code, the output might also be affected and this could in turn affect the entire code base. Worse yet, Copilot may output code with conflicting licenses. The author considers only the possibility that Copilot itself might have to inherit the license (and the dismissal that it would "help noone" because it runs on a server ignores both the existence of a (presumably self-hosted) enterprise service and the existence of licenses like AGPL, which would still apply) but it seems most people's concerns are with the output instead.

I also fail to understand how the argument that it doesn't reproduce the code exactly 99% of the time is helpful. If I copy code and rename the variables and run an autoformatter on it, it's still a copy of the code. It's odd to see a lawyer use what is essentially obfuscation as a defense against copyright claims. Also 1% is an incredibly large number given how Copilot is supposed to be used and how large the potential customer base is. Given the direction GitHub is heading with "Hello GitHub" (demoed at GitHub Universe yesterday) it's not unlikely that Copilot would in some cases be used to generate hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of lines of code in a single project.

The question isn't just whether Copilot is violating the law or not, the question is why it is or isn't because that could have wide implications outside GitHub itself. But as the author points out, sadly the lawsuit doesn't try to settle this for copyright, which might be the most impactful question.

Post reply on HN