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The Browser Company’s Darin Fisher thinks it’s time to reinvent the browser

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Re: The Browser Company’s Darin Fisher thinks it’s time to reinvent the browser

#91

Post by meheleventyone »

Vermeulen wrote: post #89
meheleventyone wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but this misses the point that you’re not removing complexity by shuffling it down a layer. Is it really an advantage to have multiple “thin browsers” if there are only two or three “browser engines” anyway due to their complexity? Further by pushing the complexity down a layer you inevitably make it slower. Aside from which from a market perspective most small browser projects already are a thin layer on top o…

It would definitely remove complexity from the browser. By that logic should browsers just contain all the common Javascript frameworks? No because that would slow down their rate of change, and sites couldn't control their exact version / configuration. Should be the same for the entire DOM

This doesn't really make sense the browser is complex because it needs to do a lot in order to meet web standards. Removing most of it's functionality and making it a VM with a cross-platform renderer is definitely a great idea for building cross-platform applications but it's no longer functionally a browser. You could build a browser engine on top but then that's just circuitous and most likely slower. The standards and complexity don't vanish in either case. Neither does the VM and renderer obviate the need to follow the version and configuration of that piece of software. And importantly you don't need to use the DOM right now if you don't want to in the browser as Figma and other applications clearly demonstrate.

If what you're trying to say is an application platform based on WASM and WebGPU that safely sandboxed userland applications ultimately delivered over the internet is a good idea then yes I'd agree it is. But it's not a browser.

Re: The Browser Company’s Darin Fisher thinks it’s time to reinvent the browser

#93

Post by raxxorraxor »

Vermeulen wrote: post #17

Reinventing the browser should be simplifying it to only what it needs to be: executing + rendering remote code in a sandboxed window. Make a new browser that is just WebGPU + WebAssembly, no more DOM. Would already run the next wave of games that will come targeting that. Then for regular websites, have them deliver a HTML rendering engine written in Webassembly for how they want to be rendered. No more need to test…

I think the net would become far less accessible. WebAssembly has its uses in certain applications. For high quality streaming or similar use cases it can really help to speed things up.

But for the average website? Not keen on having binary blobs executed for everything. That will at some point come with its own perils and in certain points would be a step back.

For this I have applications. For what would you need a browser then?

Want to develop an ad blocker? Too bad...

Re: The Browser Company’s Darin Fisher thinks it’s time to reinvent the browser

#96

Post by postalrat »

Latty wrote: post #43
Vermeulen wrote: post #17

Reinventing the browser should be simplifying it to only what it needs to be: executing + rendering remote code in a sandboxed window. Make a new browser that is just WebGPU + WebAssembly, no more DOM. Would already run the next wave of games that will come targeting that. Then for regular websites, have them deliver a HTML rendering engine written in Webassembly for how they want to be rendered. No more need to test…

My instant thought is that this is an accessibility nightmare of an idea.

That's always my first thought when I hear this idea.

Re: The Browser Company’s Darin Fisher thinks it’s time to reinvent the browser

#97

Post by thebitstick »

vanshg wrote: post #73

I've been using a new WebKit-based browser called Orion. It is super snappy, has compatibility with Chrome and Firefox extensions, has power-user features built-in, is privacy focused (collects 0 telemetry as a tenet -- they are donation based), and continues to add features at super fast pace. I highly recommend giving it consideration if you are looking to move away from Chrome. Some features I love: tree-style tab…

Every Orion update makes the browser even better. With Safari and Firefox updates I'm always worried what they've made worse... Chrome is the absolute worst.

Re: The Browser Company’s Darin Fisher thinks it’s time to reinvent the browser

#98

Post by ksec »

imoreno wrote: post #41

There is certainly more than one person who wants to reinvent browsers, even among web pioneers, I'm sure :-) Some things I'd like to see in the next generation of browsers: - Modular design. Many things like rendering engine, history/cookie/cache mechanism, configuration framework, UI, sync system, download manager, privacy enhancements, ad blocking/request filtering, extensions should be separate programs (with ind…

In terms of Modular design, Webkit is pretty much it.

The thing with modern browser is that we cant even Render an interactive HTML5 CRUD apps at 120fps at low latency with zero drop frames and jitter. Something many Simple Native Apps could do.

Re: The Browser Company’s Darin Fisher thinks it’s time to reinvent the browser

#99

Post by s7r »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #18

I would very much like to see someone move htmx-like hypermedia functionality into a browser. While innovating around the chrome of the browser is certainly nice, it seems to me that hypermedia is just a few small tweaks away from being a viable alternative to the SPA approach for many applications, and it really wouldn't be much code at all to support.

Can you elaborate on this? What could a browser look like/do, that has htmx-like hypermedia functionality in it?

Re: The Browser Company’s Darin Fisher thinks it’s time to reinvent the browser

#100

Post by recursivedoubts »

s7r wrote: post #99
recursivedoubts wrote: post #18

I would very much like to see someone move htmx-like hypermedia functionality into a browser. While innovating around the chrome of the browser is certainly nice, it seems to me that hypermedia is just a few small tweaks away from being a viable alternative to the SPA approach for many applications, and it really wouldn't be much code at all to support.

Can you elaborate on this? What could a browser look like/do, that has htmx-like hypermedia functionality in it?

Basically generalize the concept of hypermedia controls (links and forms) in the manner of htmx:

- generalize event triggers for hypermedia requests

- allow targeted replacement of HTML within a page (rather than requiring a full page refresh)

- surface all the HTTP methods (DELETE, PATCH, PUT) in plain HTML

All small things on top of normal HTML functionality, but, together, allow much more sophisticated user interfaces to be built:

https://htmx.org/examples

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