I love The Office, but I don’t believe that the writers actually have some deep knowledge of business psychology and hierarchy. It seems pointless to attempt a deep analysis through that lens.
The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)
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Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)
#92>(the office) I’ve been unable to figure out what makes it so devastatingly effective, and elevates it so far above the likes of Dilbert and Office Space. Dilbert is a hand drawn comic so it will never have the media reach of TV. It also tends to focus more on the details of the bureaucratic brokenness for people to laugh rather than cry at in daily life. The office is syndicated TV with a new episode every week. It…
But Adams left (and I left) and, for the most part, Dilbert ended up mostly stuck in a 90s cubicle time warp notwithstanding some zingers about cloud from time to time. (Some of which hit amusingly close to home as the consultant I was later.)
Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)
#93So I read this article before and found it interesting. Then I read this article that reviewed and now put less stock in the Gervais Principle https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-the-gervai...
Scott makes some good points but I think he simply lacks experience in the kind of big corporations Venkat describes. I think the Gervais Principle can be observed most readily in large, old-economy firms operating in zero-sum industries. It's probably more predominant on the east coast than the west coast, and even more predominant outside of the US. That's not to say that small, new-economy, west-coast, non-zero-sum companies won't demonstrate the same patterns, but they will almost certainly appear more weakly, in different forms. (And, of course, firms in the middle will show the same patterns in middling amounts.)
I first read these articles back in university, thought they were amazing mind-blowing red-pill insights, then promptly discovered on entering the working world that I had too little experience to utilise this kind of thinking.
A few years later I decided that a more principled, honest stance makes sense: be productive, set goals, figure out what you're doing before your do it, decide what you want and then go after it, don't take on work that you can't handle, etc. If you do that, you should be able to avoid politics (or so I thought). This strategy works very well... up to a point. However, after a few more years, and lots of reflection, I've realised that the dynamics Rao describes are visible in pretty much any group of people over a certain size. You just have to observe closely over a long period of time.
Even the most political workplace will look normal 90% of the time... the political interactions are subtle, ambiguous, and almost always inseparable from ongoing relationships or interpersonal dramas. Heck, 95% or more of "politicking" consists of interpersonal skills, "emotional awareness" and the ability to communicate. The Machiavellianism only really comes into play amongst people who've shown that they can do their jobs, have a decent circle of friends (or "friends") in the organisation, and have some idea of what they'd do with organisational power. These are the "table stakes" that Venkat refers to; before you obtain these, attempting to play the political game is pointless.
I concluded that up until the age of about 27-28, it's best to focus on building up your core skillset so that you can gain "table stakes". As a general rule, people under 25 can't beat people over 35 in political games, and shouldn't even try. (For people in-between, it's complicated.) However, over the age of about 28-30, understanding the political games suddenly becomes much, much more important. Even if you only want to use your powers for noble ends. (Example: supporting a junior employee who has unintentionally earned the disapproval of the boss.) With the context of a few years worth of work experience, Venkat's article makes a lot more sense. (Especially after sincerely attempting to walk the path of honesty, integrity and productivity, and observing its strengths and weaknesses.)
It's possible that Scott and his friends either work in very nice companies, or that that don't notice these dynamics going on around them. I have a simpler hypothesis: they're Losers (in Rao's sense) -- they might be well-paid losers, highly-educated losers, socially and financially successful losers, charming and sociable losers, but Losers nevertheless. When Rao calls someone a Loser, all he means is that they've given up on maximizing their potential wealth and power in exchange for a steady income (which may still be very high) and belonging to a particular crowd. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and for 90% of people, it's a reasonable trade.
There's no special pot of gold or magic crown you win by becoming a "sociopath". It simply means that you've decided to step outside of the box defined by the local social structure and to walk your own path. Whether that path is good or evil, logical or insane, spiritual or depraved, is from then on entirely up to you.
That said: based on what I've read about politicking in rationalist circles, and in EA circles, and at Google promotional reviews, and at other FAANGs, and at large silicon valley startups, and at small silicon valley startups, (and presumably amongst small indie bloggers who get targeted by the New York Times) I simply conclude that this kind of behaviour occurs all around Scott and that he simply isn't aware of it.
Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dilbert does have a cartoon TV series that ran for 2 seasons. https://youtu.be/J1KEPvuiQIs
I always feel like I'm the only one who enjoyed the series. I don't know what's so terribly bad about it. It's not The Simpsons, and it's not _that_ related to the strip, but it's amusing in many ways.
Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)
#95When I first read this, I found it too cynical for my tastes. But now, I can say it's a bit relatable. Being a software engineer, I don't find the "bad" bargain I have for myself that bad. I am a happy "loser." But over the years, I have observed— multiple times—obviously talented people who have been slogging for a shitty company for years. It takes them forever to realize they are wasting their time and have to tak…
The tone of the article is extremely negative. Sociopath, Clueless, Loser. And that leads to a generally negative framing of everything and all of the people in question. The general concepts: some people act as capitalists, some people find meaning in their work and lose sight of the capitalistic nature of work, and some people find meaning outside of work and do so by doing the bare minimum at work and not playing…
In my opinion it works just as well, without any of the negativity or cynicism of the original Gervais article.
Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did Bezos know about Shatner's alcohol problems? I watched more Star Trek than most, but I had no idea before this comment, and I have even less of an idea about his wife. Not everyone is clued up on the latest celebrity gossip.
Even if he didn’t, it was a terribly apathetic behavior while shatner tried to reflect on the emotional impact of the trip.
Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)
#97I hadn't realized it before today, but Jerry Pournelle (a science fiction writer) pioneered here (with two groups, not three, which is an advance in understanding.) "Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people": First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational…
That assumes a static hierarchy. Cooperatives could fix most of that though, since anyone becoming a problem could be recalled from their position.
It examines a particularly democratic union which seemed unusually able to withstand degeneration into an oligarchy.
Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)
#98So I read this article before and found it interesting. Then I read this article that reviewed and now put less stock in the Gervais Principle https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-the-gervai...
Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dilbert does have a cartoon TV series that ran for 2 seasons. https://youtu.be/J1KEPvuiQIs
Wow that is bad. Its like they gave an intern a shoestring budget and told them to make something happen. The voice actors are like they just grabbed the nearest person and told them hey you are gonna voice these characters.
Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
It reminds me of the quote: "the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy". The thing about the Iron Rule (which I agree with) is that it appears in online forums too. In placaes like Wikipedia, Stack Overflow and various forums the community divides into three groups: 1. Content creators: those who past and answer questions, etc; 2. Moderators: those who write and enforce rules and sta…
I think they main incentive that drives people to initially become moderators is the desire to keep the community they operate in clean and rule abiding. In well-policed communities where moderators actively listen to users, or where people feel reporting and flagging mechanisms work, I would imagine people generally feel empowered enough that they are satisfied remaining a regular user. I don't think many moderators…