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Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

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Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#91

Post by NikolaNovak »

merely-unlikely wrote: post #89
NikolaNovak wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fascinating, because recently I started thinking that I'm underestimating how long we've been able to craft (which may be different than engineer, or mass manufacture) things precisely. Recently I dug teeny bit into pocket watches, and then wrist watches, which turnst out were a thing way longer than I imagined!

> Recently I dug teeny bit into pocket watches, and then wrist watches, which turnst out were a thing way longer than I imagined! Weren't these handcrafted by highly skilled and highly paid specialists for a long, long time. In contrast to more modern mass production.

Yes; so I think that's where scope or intent of statement may come in. I think:

* We were able to craft, manually, things much more precisely for much longer than some of us thought

* We were able to design/engineer/mass-manufacture precise things for far shorter than many of us thought

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#92

Post by michaelt »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #8
UncleSlacky wrote: post #5

Often multiple inventors arrive at the same idea at almost the same time, for example Edison and Swan for the light bulb, Meucci and Bell (among others) for the telephone, Tesla and Marconi for radio, the Wrights and many others for the airplane etc. possibly because the technological and social level of society has reached a certain point in its development when the "time is ripe" for a given invention. As Charles F…

Not sure I buy that. I've never found users (culture) knows what it wants next. In software, users will suggest incremental improvements but never a whole new tool. I think it's steam-engine-time, when the steam engine arrives. And gets successfully marketed.

Some things are obvious - people have talked about "self-driving cars" for almost as long as there have been cars. Pirates and porn-lovers were watching entire movies on their computers, via broadband internet, 5+ years before Netflix launched their first streaming service. Electric cars - around since the 1880s.

Other things are completely non-obvious. Politicians and journalists falling in love with a platform that only allows 140-character messages? Very much unexpected.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#93

Post by marktangotango »

dboreham wrote: post #58

Watt needed to get a set of technologies developed to make a workable efficient steam engine. E.g. how to bore a straight cylinder in a material that withstands high pressure and temperature. Another aspect is that solutions tend to occupy a niche within the existing environment. E.g. an iPhone is no use to a Babylonian because they have no 5G infrastructure. A Lamborghini is no use to a Roman because a) no gas stati…

> it'd get stuck behind all the ox carts already on the road.

Lol, that's pretty much the case today, as anyone who's driven a sports car in traffic, on public streets can attest!

In my public education the steam engine received zero coverage which is a pity because it's development and application spurred so much science and understanding. I've often thought a science curriculum based on the study of steam and work would be particularly enlightening.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#94

Post by soneil »

cptaj wrote: post #18

An important factor seems to be precision engineering. I saw the point made in The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester, where they argue that while all the science and experimentation was there, it wasn't until precision parts were widely available that steam engines really solved all their problems and became viable https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-per…

I believe metallurgy played a big part in it too. It may actually be the improvement in canon during the age of the great european land laws that brought our steelworking to the place needed.

It's amazing how many details needed culminate into what now seems a relatively obvious technology.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#95

Post by bumby »

soco wrote: post #63
bumby wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s an argument that heavier than air flight was mainly due to Curtis who was able to help the Wrights get an engine with a much better power:weight ratio. The Wrights made many contributions, notably a very efficient propeller, I believe. But some of their biggest claims, like wing-warping, succumbed to others ideas like Curtis’ ailerons.

Let's not forget Leonardo da Vinci's studies around 1500 or whatever flight the Babylonians or Indian vimanas were supposed to do...

Sure if we’re talking about the idea, I was more so referencing the realization of that idea.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#96

Post by steveBK123 »

Damogran6 wrote: post #68
steveBK123 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern people overestimate how long we have been able to engineer things precisely. I used to use a lot of vintage German cameras. Really right up through the 1950s the tolerances were wide enough that no two cameras were exactly alike. The parts were all replaceable, and there were often adjustments & shims inside to keep things in spec. For example, one camera might have part A that's a little long so it's matching…

I had a 89 Corvette...designed in the late 70's early 80's before computers were generally used to do so. It was a mass of shims and slotted holes to get things to line up. I had a 1998 Corvette...designed in the early 90's with CADCAM. No shims. Things like a door latch and door made by entirely different companies, the three holes to attach the latch weren't shimmed or slotted, and the replacement fit exactly with…

Cars were exactly the other example I was going to use but cut my comment short.

Anyone who has looked in the engine bay of a car from 50s/80s/00s/now can observe how tightly packed & compartmentalized everything is now. Early cars had a lot of room under the hood cuz mechanics were constantly in there tinkering, adjusting or replacing bits and pieces. It's incredible how long a car from a reliable brand lasts now, with minimal maintenance.

EVs are another step function in this change as theres even fewer mechanical moving parts and fluid lines to worry about.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#97

Post by anjc »

hef19898 wrote: post #85
anjc wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern people overestimate how long we have been able to engineer things precisely I think you're underestimating it also. For example, micrometres capable of measuring imperceptible differences have existed for many centuries, same for manufacturing machines (lathes, mills) that can shape objects to imperceptible requirements. Cameras probably just don't require such precision.

Cameras always have been optical appliances. And as such they in deed do require a lot of precision. Especially those with changeable lenses, unless you don't mind your focal plane not being where your film, or nowadays sensor, is.

I presumed OP was talking about winders and so on. If shims were used for critical elements like optical alignment, I'm guessing that it's because this was the cheaper route to precision, rather than due to an inability to measure and manufacture precisely.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#98

Post by marcosdumay »

perilunar wrote: post #17
UncleSlacky wrote: post #5

Often multiple inventors arrive at the same idea at almost the same time, for example Edison and Swan for the light bulb, Meucci and Bell (among others) for the telephone, Tesla and Marconi for radio, the Wrights and many others for the airplane etc. possibly because the technological and social level of society has reached a certain point in its development when the "time is ripe" for a given invention. As Charles F…

The Wright Brothers didn't come up with the idea of the airplane at all — people had been working on it for over 100 years.

Yet on the 10 years around their flight, a lot of people developed powered flight independently. And none did it on the previous 95 years.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#99

Post by csours »

cptaj wrote: post #18

An important factor seems to be precision engineering. I saw the point made in The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester, where they argue that while all the science and experimentation was there, it wasn't until precision parts were widely available that steam engines really solved all their problems and became viable https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-per…

A YouTube channel primarily dedicated to precision: https://www.youtube.com/c/machinethinking

Example video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRnrn5DE58

I think it's fair to call these mini-documentaries.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#100

Post by ramesh31 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #3

> So why did it then take almost another half a century, even with the increasingly widespread understanding of atmospheric pressure and vacuums, for a widely-adopted and practical atmospheric engine like Thomas Savery’s to appear? > The answer, I think, is what it almost always is: that inventors are simply extremely rare. People can have all the incentives, all the materials, all the mechanical skills, and even all…

I was having this argument the other day with regards to the post-WW2 Nazi rocket scientists who took the US to the moon.

There's a very real possibility that liquid rockets would have remained a novelty, just another "Nazi Wunderwaffe" had they all been tried and hung for their crimes instead of pardoned and put to work. Solid rockets were (and are) more than sufficient for all military applications. But to get people into space, you need liquid engines. Would we have ever invented them independently? Very possibly not.

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