Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 111 posts

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#91

Post by overgryphon »

jeswin wrote: post #44

It could be that women have a better sense of fairness than most men. They might compare themselves with the "truly outstanding" employees (both men and women), and decide for themselves what is fair. Men probably have a more skewed view of what they can do; and still fight for money which doesn't match their skills. Having said that, I might have to justify whether my argument subtly implies that there are fewer wom…

I'm not sure that choices made in youth exclude people from developing skills later in life. So what if less women spend their youth in basements? After college (if you go), it doesn't matter whether you did or not.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#92

Post by Mz »

jeswin wrote: post #44

It could be that women have a better sense of fairness than most men. They might compare themselves with the "truly outstanding" employees (both men and women), and decide for themselves what is fair. Men probably have a more skewed view of what they can do; and still fight for money which doesn't match their skills. Having said that, I might have to justify whether my argument subtly implies that there are fewer wom…

I am not comparing intellect, just choices.

There is some evidence, though, that men tend to divide up more between the extremes than women do. I'm not sure how much of this is "biology" and how much is socially fostered.

(and if it makes any difference to how people view the observation: I happen to be female).

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#93

Post by temphn »

rachelbythebay wrote: post #4

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…

There are other dimensions to life besides the purely economic. In the social sphere, men are the ones who need to approach and women are the ones with all the options. It's weird that this is not considered, as the point for many (most?) men of earning money is to attract female companionship.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#94

Post by chegra »

Mz wrote: post #80
chegra84 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when I was participating in start-up weekend, one of the thoughts through my head was whoever the person sitting at the front I'm going to be on their team, whether male or female. "Fortune favours the bold."[we won] Why does aggression has to be bad? To me I kinda use it as a filter. I don't think I'm special, and a lot of other people have their radar set to identify aggressive people.

I think I'm just extremely hard for people to read/guage. So anyone who wants to simplify the matter boils it down to something negative and moves on. I'm multi-cultural. I've traveled. I have an associate of arts in humanities but then my (unfinished) bachelor's is a BS, not a BA (in environmental studies). I also have a certificate in GIS. I'm not easily pigeon-holed and I make a lot of people uncomfortable. Labeli…

What I have found is that a given set of people in the larger population[for a particular system] will like you, just random probability. What you effectively have to do is to social proof yourself, ie make it seem to others that it is okay for you to be aggressive. What this means is not trying to appease the people that don't like you or even talking to them, until you have them over on your side you basically ignore them or keep your words to them at a minimum.

People in social situations tend to doubt their own judgement. So, if a certain number of people say you are cool, you are cool[ Three man make a tiger, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_men_make_a_tiger ]. According to asche confirmity experiment[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments] it takes about 3 person to 1 to change an opinion.

Because you are staying away from people who effectively don't get you, they wouldn't have any other basis to judge you on other than your friends, who will be telling them how cool you are.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#95

Post by praptak »

philwelch wrote: post #85
skrebbel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I like your comment, but I'm not sure because I didn't understand it. Could you (honest request), maybe try to rephrase it in a way that non-English-language-PhDs can also follow? Like, what is "supposedly immutable male sexual dynamics"? I understand immutable data, but not immutable dynamics.

"Immutable dynamics" is an oxymoron, isn't it?

Nope, just a shorthand for "dynamics with immutable parameters". Parameters of a dynamic process might be immutable, no contradiction here.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#96

Post by Mz »

chegra wrote: post #94
Mz wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'm just extremely hard for people to read/guage. So anyone who wants to simplify the matter boils it down to something negative and moves on. I'm multi-cultural. I've traveled. I have an associate of arts in humanities but then my (unfinished) bachelor's is a BS, not a BA (in environmental studies). I also have a certificate in GIS. I'm not easily pigeon-holed and I make a lot of people uncomfortable. Labeli…

What I have found is that a given set of people in the larger population[for a particular system] will like you, just random probability. What you effectively have to do is to social proof yourself, ie make it seem to others that it is okay for you to be aggressive. What this means is not trying to appease the people that don't like you or even talking to them, until you have them over on your side you basically igno…

I have decided I have "star quality". And it's not something the big bureaucracy I work for is likely to tolerate well. I need to find a way to cash in on that. Historically, it's gotten me attention at times like a "star" but no money. I've had fan emails at times and gotten big fan-like reactions in some forums/email lists and one of my emails was quoted in a book (after being heavily edited down from 2000+ words to 300, with my signed written permission).

I want to be the Madonna of the Internet.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#97

Post by praptak »

yuvadam wrote: post #76
D_Alex wrote: post #65

I love how a piece in The Atlantic originated on Reddit!

I don't know why the downvotes, this is absolutely correct [1]. [1] - http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/hvv2m/i_wor...

Not necessarily, those statements aren't exactly new: http://www.womendontask.com/ Just because someone posted something similar on reddit does not mean that the article responded to that.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#98

Post by VladRussian »

the article is "Why Women Don't Negotiate" _with men_. Or do women also treat negotiating women badly?

Btw, i also don't negotiate. I just take best offer (last time i refused 2 before much better one came) and change job when i feel the market can offer a better one.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#99

Post by yuvadam »

praptak wrote: post #97
yuvadam wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why the downvotes, this is absolutely correct [1]. [1] - http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/hvv2m/i_wor...

Not necessarily, those statements aren't exactly new: http://www.womendontask.com/ Just because someone posted something similar on reddit does not mean that the article responded to that.

It was discussed on the AskReddit subreddit a few days ago, can't find the exact link right now.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#100

Post by davedx »

chc wrote: post #42
rachelbythebay wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I was able to really practice this stuff. Here's one thing which did happen, though: while describing a particular failure, I said " and dropped the ball on this one". One of the guys on my team really objected to that. He didn't like hearing it from me. I thought for a second and said, "hey, wait, you don't react like that when says the same thing". He just got really quiet and never really addressed the…

Outright accusing people of sexism absolutely will make them shut off to you. So will accusing them of puppy-kicking and any number of other things where they don't want to think of themselves as That Kind Of Person (even if they really do act that way sometimes) — but sexism is particularly volatile because there's an implicit threat of a lawsuit on top of the moral judgment. It's one of those things where, if someb…

I can't believe someone is being told to read 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' because they called someone out about being sexist.

She is not the one who needs to change!

Post reply on HN