Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#91

Post by foverzar » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 3:49 PM UTC

kken wrote: post #83

origin_path wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple gas pipelines from Russia are closed because European governments refuse to allow them to run. That's gas sanctions, why do you argue otherwise? For example Germany refuses to open Nord Stream 2, and Nord Stream 1 is broken due to sanctions on equipment repair - the turbines are made by Siemens and several are sitting in UK factories unable to be re-exported back due to sanctions. Although the troubles with…

>Nord Stream 1 is broken due to sanctions on equipment repair It's well known that this is not true. You are perpetuating russian propaganda.

> It's well known that this is not true

Well known? Is it? Could you please give some reference then?

No one would be surprised to see a "work-to-rule" action, but how is it "russian propaganda" that Europe had sanctioned Russian energy industry and it "somehow" had consequences?

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#92

Post by bombcar » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 3:52 PM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #54

bombcar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progressive pricing exists for commercial users but in general has been too complicated for home users.

I think we need to figure out how to de-complicate variable rates for residential customers. Forcing people to pay what electricity actually costs (ideally, in real-time) is a good way to make your demand-side much more responsive. During the Texas winter crisis, virtually no residential customers saw a financial incentive to wind down power usage. Only those crazies on Griddy, et. al. were impacted.

Both in Texas and California recently lots of people voluntarily cut back but it’d be nice to reflect that in the billing in some way. The Griddy way may have been too extreme but encouraging conservation of energy is a generally good idea (imagine things like rebating permit fees based on sliding scale of how much you “beat code” on a blower door and insulation test).

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#93

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 3:53 PM UTC

foverzar wrote: post #91

kken wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nord Stream 1 is broken due to sanctions on equipment repair It's well known that this is not true. You are perpetuating russian propaganda.

> It's well known that this is not true Well known? Is it? Could you please give some reference then? No one would be surprised to see a "work-to-rule" action, but how is it "russian propaganda" that Europe had sanctioned Russian energy industry and it "somehow" had consequences?

[deleted]

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#94

Post by frank_bb » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

No post body was provided.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#95

Post by bitschubser_ » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #90

bitschubser_ wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just out of curiosity because I have no clue :D why is it regarded as complicated? For waste you already have a basic tarif + extra for every member in the household, and the "progression" is that you have to buy really expensive "waste bags" if you produce more waste

Use more pay more is pretty simple and implemented - and the lowest tiers are really cheap. The complicated one is daily tiers - when power is more or less expensive at different times.

are daily tiers and dynamic pricing really needed for consumers, shoudn't it even out on the long term? Until recently it worked quite well for a energy supplier to supply me with a fixed rate for a year and still making profit (when I take a look at their yearly earnings report, I think I also subsidized heavy users with my low usage :D). over a year the price should average out quite nicely when I look at the energy mix in germany and the cost. The only "problem" we currently have is the merit order principle and the pegging of the (haywire) gas price to the energy price which makes calculations for suppliers difficult (and the absence of building renewable, and the maintenance and shutoffs of nuclear :D). Aside from that consumption is quite foreseeable and production also, so daily rates should not matter that much? I think paying by the hour/daily makes things just more complicated, I actually don't really want to time my laundry cooking with future prices on an hour/daily base :D

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#96

Post by belorn » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:07 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #19

retinaros wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lower than expected capacity because macron wanted to go away from nuclear five year ago. what do you think the shareholders of french nuclear and energy company wanted when they heard that? to reduce cost, hires, maintenance. the government is to blame for everything happening in france for abidding to the green party that were fed russian propaganda about renewable energies such as solars that just have renewable t…

Oh, so it is some politians fault that power plant operators screw up maintenance? PV and wind, using Chinese modules, outbid nuclear already in 2017 (?), being cheaper then Hinkley C. Never mind where we vet nuclear fuel rods from, right? Plus the fact that the summer heat wave and drought had negative effects on power plant output, not for the first time, due to limited cooling capacities. But hey, the current poli…

Of course PV and wind outbid nuclear. Using those when the weather are optimal and Russian natural gas when it doesn't was much cheaper than having a nuclear plant produce both when the weather is optimal and when it isn't. It was this economic model that resulted in Russian natural gas being declared green by Germany.

Operating a nuclear plant only in order to compete with oil and natural gas is simply too expensive, and wind and solar can always out compete nuclear when its windy and sunny. Everyone has acted economical rational to create the situation we are in.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#97

Post by nine_zeros » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #37

I am happy I got solar earlier this year. I thought it would be very expensive but we are very frugal with energy and it only was 7k euro to go off grid. During the day we can run anything (tons of sun so washing, dish washing, etc etc), during the night less so but we go to bed early (21:00) and get up at 5.

We keep talking about alternative energy's importance in reducing fossil fuel emissions. But here is another example of why alternative energy is so important. It provides diversification from shortages and geopolitical nonsense that can your lifestyle.

If you can get solar for yourself, get it while still being connected to the electric grid. You will have a much more reliable energy system than just relying on the grid.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#98

Post by dilyevsky » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #22

rat87 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With electricity What a silly comment. The switch over to an electric cars is a multi year process that will take at least until 2030 just for new cars. The current problems won't last nearlt that long

Someone forgot the laws of physics regarding electricy production for the amount of cars in transit.

What the efficiency of electric motor vs ice since you seem to be physics buf?

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#99

Post by bombcar » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

bitschubser_ wrote: post #95

bombcar wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use more pay more is pretty simple and implemented - and the lowest tiers are really cheap. The complicated one is daily tiers - when power is more or less expensive at different times.

are daily tiers and dynamic pricing really needed for consumers, shoudn't it even out on the long term? Until recently it worked quite well for a energy supplier to supply me with a fixed rate for a year and still making profit (when I take a look at their yearly earnings report, I think I also subsidized heavy users with my low usage :D). over a year the price should average out quite nicely when I look at the energ…

The goal with it is to encourage people to move load to coincide with demand. But it’s complicated and changes - during solar peaks the best time to do laundry may be midday but durning wind peaks that could be the middle of the night.

The solution is power storage either at a grid level or at a home level where the information is available to the smart batteries. And/or so much excess solar and wind that we just don’t care.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#100

Post by nivenkos » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #79

kurupt213 wrote: post #11

It’s hard to be sympathetic when this situation was so obvious and preventable. This is what short term greed and irresponsible governance looks like.

A huge part of this was Putin. How would you prevent Putin?

By building nuclear power plants and electrifying industry over the last 15 years since the Litvinenko poisoning, etc.

But joining the war this year was crazy given the current situation, Europe is doomed.