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What I’ve learned from users

paulgraham.com

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Re: What I’ve learned from users

#91

Oddest part of this post to me is that the author founded HN, but largely abandoned it because dealing with the users was a huge mental sinkhole for them; not able to find the quote, but clearly recall him saying this, though might be wrong. As it relates to HN, PG what have you learned from the users? If HN was a startup, would it make it into YC?

Totally depends on the ambition; perhaps it was never PG’s ambition to completely understand and “own” the target audience of HN, but rather wanted to delegate that responsibility, to focus on YC’s core users instead.

It may be precisely because of a tendency to understand and improve, that it is a mental sinkhole.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#92
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious to see what companies were part of the S12 batch, and who were the most notable. Among the 80 or so in that group, big winners were Coinbase, Instacart, and Zapier. https://techcrunch.com/2012/08/21/yc-demo-day-s12/

With Coinbase ipo'ed and Instacart about to ipo, that's not a bad batch from a purely investment perspective.

Coinbase? they're down 80% since their IPO (I am a shareholder); I suppose if the checkbox is "they IPOd" then sure.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#93
Prompted by the negative feedback that this essay received, ranging from being a sales pitch in disguise, to being a word salad going in all directions without answering the central question posed by the author right in the opening paragraphs, I had to go and re-examine the piece and see if these concerns are valid or not, and unexpectedly the second reading reaffirmed my initial positive reaction that this is actually a good piece, maybe not the best, but still good.

In spirit of open discussion and intellectual curiosity here, I share my insights in the following order matching that of the post:

1) PG opens with the best advice that he could dispense to prospective applicants which is "what you've learned from users".

2) He proceeds to ask himself the same question.

3) He then informs readers that his users; startup founders, usually face the same set of problems across the board.

4) Since these problems are the same, he thought of automating the solution to scale his business (dogfooding in some sense).

5) That blew up in his face spectacularly that he had to rework the plan and concede that his solution won't scale.

6) But these same problems are not recognized uniformly by founders as they sometimes face difficulties identifying them in the first place, that's where the YC partners' role come to fill this unmet need.

7) Even when people are good at identifying problems, some are bad at determining the severity or urgency that these problems pose, cue again the YC partners' role.

8) Even when they're good at risk assessment, some are bad at risk mitigation, and won't listen to the advice given by the partners but it is not made clear what he means exactly by "not listening", dismissing/not acting on solutions proposed by YC staff, or not acknowledging that there's a problem to begin with?

9) Getting down to business to solve these problems warrants focus, and how this focus is tied into speed, and how YC can help with that.

10) Startup colleagues are more important than YC partners when it comes to realizing success with their feedback, guidance and even practical help, and how YC is the best in class in this regard.

Even though the marketing language, esp the value propositions in the piece is a bit stronger for my taste, but I can't say with honesty that it overpowered the core message of the essay nor was it incoherent or disjointed in anyway that made following or understanding impossible as some have claimed here.

Verdict: 8/10

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#94
PGs take on why early stage VCs gain so much experience reminds me of my opinions on why car sales is the best sales experience.

I sold cars for almost a decade and was pretty good at it averaging 30 cars a month. That means every year I helped people sign for $16 million of products. In the end I probably sold 3000 cars for over $100 million.

(Note, I stayed in it way too long. I think most of these benefits would come from 2 years)

I made close to 50,000 phone calls, leaving probably 20,000 voicemails. I closed atleast 1000 deals purely on the phone.

I've heard excuses, stalls, lies, promises and objections over 10,000 times.

I've seen thousands of married couples discuss if they should go ahead with spending $30-100k. I've seen how they interact while waiting. (Nothing pains me more than couples, or moreso one party, playing games on their phones ignoring each other).

While there is a lot more to modern tech sales than just closing incoming leads, I think car sales is an accelerator course for interacting with, reading, and closing people.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#95
> Not that founders listen. That was another big surprise: how often founders don't listen to us. A couple weeks ago I talked to a partner who had been working for YC for a couple batches and was starting to see the pattern. "They come back a year later," she said, "and say 'We wish we'd listened to you.'"

I have a theory I've shared a few times that one of our main problems is Exceptionalism, and stuff like this go into the evidence pile. My first thought on reading this paragraph was, "Someone needs to watch more Gordon Ramsay shows."

PG's observation is practically the thesis of GR's Kitchen Nightmares. Owners think their business is in trouble, not that they are in trouble, and so any advice that touches their identity is abruptly and sometimes aggressively dismissed. One guy was so invested in the fact that he'd bought some fancy french stove that Ramsay had to bully him into selling it. Even used the price versus a stove more appropriate for the business was enough cash to keep the owner afloat for an extra 3-6 months. It seemed like Ramsay thought that if he hadn't bought it in the first place, the restaurant wouldn't have gotten on his show at all.

Most of the computing problems in software were solved in the 70's and 80's. The new solutions trickle in just fast enough to keep things from getting tedious. Most of what we spend time on are 'process' or 'style' issues that are really people problems, ranging from cognition to group dynamics. But we don't want to face that because, as someone once put it, some of us were drawn to computers because we thought we could avoid interpersonal dynamics, and instead what happened is that we spent years looking at computers while our peers were practicing interpersonal skills, putting us several years more behind, and then we find out the job is substantially about interpersonal skills. We don't want to look at it because it both breaks the illusion and suggests that we made a mistake, and we can't make those, can we.

Everybody has these problems to some degree or another. You can learn how to deal with them by watching other people do it. On TV, doing hobbies (with or without social groups), volunteering, heck even exercise comes down to getting the emotional part of your brain to allow the objective part to low-grade torture you so that you feel better the rest of the time.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Coinbase ipo'ed and Instacart about to ipo, that's not a bad batch from a purely investment perspective.

Coinbase? they're down 80% since their IPO (I am a shareholder); I suppose if the checkbox is "they IPOd" then sure.

I mean, that’s a pretty big checkbox regardless.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#97
post #53

More of a meta discussion, but it's interesting that pretty much all HN threads on PG's recent essays have a strong, negative sentiment. My guess is that this is explained by 3 factors: 1) The quantity and quality of new ideas in PG's essays is declining. 2) Readers' expectations of quality in PG's essays is increasing. 3) The pool of disenfranchised readers is growing. The quantity and quality of new ideas is decrea…

The scope of pg's posts have narrowed dramatically. Back in the Hackers & Painters days, it seemed like he was writing about a wide variety of topics. Startups were among the things he wrote about, but it wasn't exclusively about them. There were things about management styles, programming languages, even why nerds are not popular in high school. At some point, I think around the time YC started to become really succ…

If you look at the list of essay titles at https://paulgraham.com/articles.html, I think there are a lot of interesting topics that are a lot broader than startups - e.g. "heresy", "putting ideas into words", "how to work hard", "donate unrestricted", which are all from Feb 21 or later

pg actually reminds me of Eliyahu Goldratt, who developed the "theory of constraints"("TOC"). Dr Goldratt was a physicist who then tried to apply the logical problem-solving approach from physics to business problems initially, but whose work has been also used for interpersonal conflict resolution [1]. I get the same vibe from pg's essays, just trying to apply the same critical thinking skills to new areas from first principles, and just trying to see where it leads regardless of what the "established" wisdom is.

If anyone is interested in learning more, most people start by reading "The Goal", which is application of TOC to manufacturing, but if you're interested in how to think about how to apply new technology to existing human systems in a way that actually brings benefits, "beyond the goal" by goldratt is an audiobook that you should really listen to.

Fyi I have no financial interest in TOC :) But if anyone is interested in discussing how TOC thinking might apply to the problems startups face, I'd love to chat, please get in touch! (Contact info in profile)

[1] https://www.tocforeducation.com/yanibook.html

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#98

> Speed defines startups. Focus enables speed. YC improves focus. Couldn't you substitute YC for mentorship, coaching, advisement, etc? Or even peers trying to accomplish shared goals/vision? Surprisingly this article has little to even say about users, but more about YC users (i.e. founders in the program). I was hoping to read something applicable to how little companies actually talk to users and how practicing ze…

Isn't that kind of the point of YC?

Consultants are everywhere. Some are bad, some are just a bad fit. But the checks flow in one direction the entire time. YC's schtick seems to be that the checks flow in the other direction at first, when the listening often matters the most.

Basically YC has found a way to profit off of consulting as a value add.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#99

Caveat - The best type of mentors for founders are other founders. VCs, Incubators, are not optimal mentors, rather those are key folks to have in your pocket. My suggestion for all founders - find a mentor who is a founder & builder.

Let's say you're one of the hundreds of thousands of solo devs/founders making some money - but less than $1000/month on your SaaS startup. You don't want VC, you just want growth and the ability to do your startup full-time. Why would someone mentor you in that case? What's the benefit to them?

"paying it forward"? Getting personal satisfaction from helping others? E.g https://www.indiehackers.com/ ? I haven't spent a lot of time there but it seems to be a community of exactly the kind of founders you describe trying to help each other out.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#100

PG is great. What would we do without him? We want a PG in the arena at all times. This article doesn't hit the mark. Startup people don't listen, because they're trying to create something new, that nobody else understands (or people who understand are a 'parallel thought threat' like Newton and Liebniz). Counter-intuitivity is in the ballpark, but not quite "it". Really what an inventor/entrepreneur does is to spec…

It's a chicken and egg problem though. Is the idea new because I am a novel, intelligent person gifted with foresight, or is the idea new because I'm a contrarian and am more concerned with changing the world than having a really compelling reason to do so?

We talk about people 'losing their way' as Reality chips away at their original idea. And while I'm sure this really does happen to some people, how often is it just a pretty story the person tells themselves that makes them feel good, helps them get through the day, helps them sleep at night? It's much easier to compromise on something you didn't hold that dearly to begin with. Anything else that helps you sleep at night (like not worrying about payroll) makes a fine substitute, especially if you don't look at it too closely.

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