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How sustainable are fake meats?

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Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#91
post #42

"fake meat" is processed food. That, IMHO, is the main difference over just eating fresh vegetables. It's more expensive because of that, and introduces externalities and risks. I see "fake meat" as a temporary crutch for people transitioning to vegetarianism.

I'm vegetarian, I like the taste of meat, I hate the taste of these "fake" meats and I'd much rather eat veggies I really don't see the point of these, they barely taste as good as the cheapest frozen meat patty you can find. It's almost like cardboard patties with a hint of burned meat taste, and it costs as much if not more than meat in most restaurants.

Why not just ask people who eat them?

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> modest goals (replacing the chicken nugget, replacing the pepperoni) Quorn have made 'Crispy Nuggets'[1] from funghi for decades. They're a great replacement for chicken nuggets and I feel like if someone ate them without realising they wouldn't question what they're eating. 1: https://www.quorn.co.uk/products/chicken-style-nuggets

My old boss gave me one of hers at lunch one day. I noticed instantly. But I'm still of a mind that if you want to promote vegetarianism, make vegetable recipes taste better; don't make the vegetables imitate something they're not.

Maybe the purpose of these foods isn't to promote vegetarianism.

You're suggesting it's activism when it's just making a product for vegetarians who still enjoy the taste of meet from time to time.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#93

If you know much about agriculture, this question has an almost certain answer. The contrast of energy and resource expense between plants and animals is staggering, even if you’re comparing a less demanding animal like chicken. You can refrigerate, process, and ship many plants by sea, truck, and plane and they won’t catch up to animal foods. We’re also not seeing a clear economic picture in Canada and the USA becau…

The alternative we do is: * Order vegetarian when eating out. Non-western cuisines do incredible food that doesn't have any meat in it. * Only buy meat + eggs from a local farm that effectively does things "small batch". Their farm is open for visitors and you can see pigs and chickens that actually look happy . The pigs even run over to you when they smell you and you can see their cute little tails wigglin'. * Try…

>* Only buy meat + eggs from a local farm that effectively does things "small batch". Their farm is open for visitors and you can see pigs and chickens that actually look happy. The pigs even run over to you when they smell you and you can see their cute little tails wigglin'.

I understand this as an ethical argument, but are you assuming any "small batch" operation is more sustainable?

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#94
One thing that no one talks about is the methane that humans produce. If you literally eat only beef, then the volume of your poop decreases by 80% and you completely stop farting. If everyone on Earth ate only beef then there would just be 80% less poop for us to deal with and no one on Earth would fart. Also, we could put an end to most chronic diseases -- and the healthcare sector is a also a large contributor to global warming.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#95

My wife is pescatarian, which has really lowered my consumption of meat. There is such a weird contrast between meat marketing and the actual use. With my reduced consumption, I am still sometimes pulled in by marketing: the masterfully grilled steak; the shawarma roasting on a spit; the artisanal burger with a delicate balance of ground beef, fat, sausage, and maybe one or two secret ingredients... ...but this expec…

> My wife is pescatarian Not a judgment on your wife, but sharing for general awareness: I would eat land animals before eating fish again. You can read Outlaw Ocean for a quick look at how awful the seafood industry is. The seafood industry has everything from slavery, abuse, animal population decimation, and more, which is directly supported by anyone who eats seafood: > Do you know if the fish on your plate is leg…

You'll find a lot of shit like this in many industries fwiw.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#96
post #3
post #2

From the article: " even poorly produced plant-based meats are better, environmentally, than meat from well-raised livestock. "

I don't know why this is surprising. Option A: grow plants, eat plants. Option B: grow plants, breed animals, feed plants to animals, give animal antibiotics to survive breeding pens, give animal hormones to grow faster, slaughter animal, eat animal.

99% of plant species are not suitable for human consumption, whereas 99% of animal species can be safely consumed by humans. And as for the remaining 1% of plant species that humans do eat, you will find that if you cut them out of your diet you will see remarkable health improvements.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#97
We could use nuclear power to desalinate seawater and turn the Sahara desert into a vast grassland that could support a couple billion cows -- in my view this is the best route forward for humanity, given how much better beef is for human health than any other food. Full disclosure: I only eat beef.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#98
No mention of nuts in the article, nor in the comments here, which is truly sad. It's like people have forgotten that nuts exist, as they are so often left out the discussion around meat vs plants vs fake meats WRT fats and proteins. Nuts are incredibly nutritious, high in fat and protein that is arguably of better quality than animal fats and proteins, and many nut trees can live for hundreds of years while producing thousands of pounds of nuts every year. Some nut species can live for thousands of years if they are managed correctly (there are still living hazelnuts in Italy that were planted by the Romans). Deeply tap-rooted species like walnuts and hickories don't require supplemental watering once established. I can't find it at the moment but last year I read a study of energy flows for North American tree crops, and the ERoEI of Shagbark Hickory was rated at 55,000.

Going forward, anytime there is discussion of energy or efficiency of plant vs animal agriculture vs fake meat, etc, if tree crops aren't factored into the discussion then that provides an opportunity to quote No Country for Old Men: "You don't know what you're talking about, do you?" Leaving out that there is the option of growing a tree that produces a cow's weight worth of fats and proteins every year, with little to no inputs, in perpetuity, is a crime of omission.

Just to compare some approximate numbers, 100g of hazelnut contains 17.0g of carbs, 13.7g protein, and 60.8g fat. Walnuts contain 9.9g, 26.1g, and 65.2g, respectively. Whereas 100g of beef contains 0g carbs, 35g protein, and 10g fat. And 100 grams of black beans contains 25g carbs, 9g protein, 0.5g fat.

Further reading -- Tree Crops: A Permanent Agriculture, by J. Russell Smith

Further viewing -- "Nuts as Staple Foods" a presentation by Osker Brown: https://youtu.be/CJpitVC4mzs

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#99

If you know much about agriculture, this question has an almost certain answer. The contrast of energy and resource expense between plants and animals is staggering, even if you’re comparing a less demanding animal like chicken. You can refrigerate, process, and ship many plants by sea, truck, and plane and they won’t catch up to animal foods. We’re also not seeing a clear economic picture in Canada and the USA becau…

> My kids like the fake meats, but I’m pretty content with whole grains and legumes covering most of my protein requirements. Once you get over meat, you almost never think about it and the substitutes seem unnecessarily unhealthy (they’re kind of like savoury junk food with a ton of salt and saturated fat).

Personally I often have vegetarian dishes in eateries or when ordering take-out, when available - it is probably just me, but none of those really feel "worse" than meat, nor do I find myself feeling like I'm missing out on it. Even when having fast food, a pea/bean based burger patty feels good enough to me and is a similarly enjoyable experience to a meat based one.

That said, I still sometimes have meat (and other animal products) as well, given that I'm not educated enough or don't feel competent enough to nail down what exactly my dietary requirements might be, though talking with a GP and getting blood work done every now and then can be at least a bit helpful in that regard. Still, there is a certain comfort in having fried eggs or something like that once a week, although some suggest that many of the oils used in cooking might also be worse than olive oil.

For the majority of people, the quote by Michael Pollan is probably decent advice:

  Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.
Of course, some people's strong enjoyment of meat aside, it's hard to even know exactly what you're eating on a daily basis, given the many additives used for a variety of reasons in food products nowadays. And recognizing that sometimes going to sleep a bit hungry is okay might also take work, as would training yourself to recognize the difference between hunger, thirst and stress/boredom as well.

(note: adjacently to this topic, carnivorous pets also still enjoy a diet with lots of meat in it, currently no good "compromise" there, their dietary requirements have to be taken into account as well and messing about with those feels unwise)

> I think it’s also important to acknowledge how filthy, torturous, destructive, and unethical the vast majority of animal agriculture activities are.

I've heard that Dominion from 2018 can be rather eye opening, though viewer discretion is advised: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(2018_film)

Personally, I've also gone hunting with my father and have helped dispose of the guts, carry game back home, skin the carcass, cut/snap the bones and so on. I'm not saying that everyone needs to do that, but partaking in the process of preparing meat (even in a farm setting) is a humbling experience. Maybe not enough to "scare" one away from eating meat, but definitely enough to make one reconsider how much meat they consume.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> modest goals (replacing the chicken nugget, replacing the pepperoni) Quorn have made 'Crispy Nuggets'[1] from funghi for decades. They're a great replacement for chicken nuggets and I feel like if someone ate them without realising they wouldn't question what they're eating. 1: https://www.quorn.co.uk/products/chicken-style-nuggets

My old boss gave me one of hers at lunch one day. I noticed instantly. But I'm still of a mind that if you want to promote vegetarianism, make vegetable recipes taste better; don't make the vegetables imitate something they're not.

I feel similarly, but when the thing being imitated is just breaded and fried "stuff" like a nugget, it seems like an inexpensive, tasty vegan filling should be simpler. Maybe the distinction is making a bite that is delicious, not necessarily something meat-like. If the nugget is good, you won't care if the filling is chicken, mozzarella, bean, or something else.
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