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Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

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Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#91

Post by yanderekko »

thunderfork wrote: post #84
yanderekko wrote: post #51

As someone who pseudonymously defends the right of KiwiFarms to exist, I am pretty much guaranteed to lose my job if I am doxxed and targeted by the usual activist crowd. A trans woman who opposes KiwiFarms faces no comparable intrinsic threat, which is why I can't take these crybully attacks on speech seriously.

I think you make a very good point here - if someone made a website with the exact format of KiwiFarms, but for "collecting info" on programmers who "love nazis" (in the same way that every KF thread's subject "deserves it" because of some disproportionately aggrandized sleight), all the HN users who are currently sobbing about the death of free speech would unite to say that the website should be deplatformed immedi…

>I think you make a very good point here - if someone made a website with the exact format of KiwiFarms, but for "collecting info" on programmers who "love nazis" (in the same way that every KF thread's subject "deserves it" because of some disproportionately aggrandized sleight), all the HN users who are currently sobbing about the death of free speech would unite to say that the website should be deplatformed immediately.

No, I'd defend that website's existence.

>Yeah, man, a real swatting and bomb threat don't compare in the slightest to the scenario you've presented where someone defending KF gets fired, something that's definitely happened.

Keffels getting attacked by KF is obviously not strong evidence that any random trans woman who criticizes KF in any capacity will be attacked.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#92

Post by tomrod »

oynqr wrote: post #88
tomrod wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assessment that the quote is out-of-context is where the disconnect looks to be. The OP mentions that they tried to follow good opsec but had an issue, and you mentioned "Showing basic restraint and not oversharing online" as the solution -- which based on OP's opsec comment they looked to follow that.

I still don't know where the quote came from, its context, or if it is a quote in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I am legitimately puzzled by this exchange.

I don't find it puzzling. You're putting the onus of being harassed on OP despite them following what they felt was reasonable opsec, rather than on the people harassing.

At least, that's what your prior comments communicated.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#93

Post by logicalmonster »

benwad wrote: post #44
logicalmonster wrote: post #19

> What's the precedence set by continuing to do business with kiwifarms? Continuing to do business with Kiwifarms is an acknowledgement that individuals are responsible for their own actions, and any illegal activity such as swatting is the fault of the individual. Are Mark Zuckerberg and Meta responsible when people livestream murders or plan terrorist attacks using Facebook? Obviously no. Now I will acknowledge tha…

But the issue here isn't just the actions of individuals - without a community like Kiwifarms to coordinate and plan these attacks then these individuals might not have the motivation or organisation to do them. While I don't think Cloudflare has full responsibility over everyone they do business with, I also think they have a moral imperative to intervene when one of their customers is using their service to coordin…

No post body was provided.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#94

Post by bArray »

navjack27 wrote: post #71
bArray wrote: post #54

> I've seen how dangerous it can be for a trans woman to stick her head up. I've watched friends and strangers alike be harassed, attacked, SWAT'd, and doxxed. Not public figures (though they don't deserve death threats either), just regular trans people trying to live their lives and speak their experiences. These problems are all being collated together, but they are not of equal strength. Things that cause physica…

The entire concept of them cleaning up their act is impossible. That is the background. That is the reason for existing. That's what they do. They coordinate harassment. They make people go insane. They lie and manipulate. Making them harder to access and harder to know about is good. Making what the core of what they are more known is good. It shouldn't be so easy for some gullible online soul to stumble upon this a…

If anything will cause them to clean up their act, it will be this. I guess we will see.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#95

Post by Volundr »

yanderekko wrote: post #89
Volundr wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it doesn't need to happen to everyone to be a valid concern, but it needs to happen to someone. So who? Who is this person who has been attacked by the "cancellation mob" and fired for saying nothing more than "Cloudflare shouldn't have dropped Kiwifarms, if a crime was committed it was a matter for law enforcement?"

>Sure, it doesn't need to happen to everyone to be a valid concern, but it needs to happen to someone. It needs to happen to someone on both sides. So let me turn this around: Who has KiwiFarms doxxed and harassed simply for the act of being trans and saying that CloudFlare should drop KiwiFarms (or something similarly innocuous). imo the difference here is not "I have an example and you don't", but it's pretty clear…

> So let me turn this around

No. You made the claim here, not me. I understand you would now like to change the subject to something you feel more prepared to debate, but I am not obliged to cooperate by allowing you to drag me into a tangent.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#96

Post by tarboreus »

benwad wrote: post #44
logicalmonster wrote: post #19

> What's the precedence set by continuing to do business with kiwifarms? Continuing to do business with Kiwifarms is an acknowledgement that individuals are responsible for their own actions, and any illegal activity such as swatting is the fault of the individual. Are Mark Zuckerberg and Meta responsible when people livestream murders or plan terrorist attacks using Facebook? Obviously no. Now I will acknowledge tha…

But the issue here isn't just the actions of individuals - without a community like Kiwifarms to coordinate and plan these attacks then these individuals might not have the motivation or organisation to do them. While I don't think Cloudflare has full responsibility over everyone they do business with, I also think they have a moral imperative to intervene when one of their customers is using their service to coordin…

It's been removed from the wayback machine.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#97

Post by oynqr »

tomrod wrote: post #92
oynqr wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't know where the quote came from, its context, or if it is a quote in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I am legitimately puzzled by this exchange.

I don't find it puzzling. You're putting the onus of being harassed on OP despite them following what they felt was reasonable opsec, rather than on the people harassing. At least, that's what your prior comments communicated.

If you paint a giant target on your back while also revealing who and where you are, people that dislike you for whatever reason are going to target you. That is reality and will continue to be reality even without a site like Kiwi Farms.

My initial comment communicated that OP was probably going to be fine. Or not. It's not like I can tell.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#98

Post by diogenesjunior »

navjack27 wrote: post #72
diogenesjunior wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah but they have no reason to doxx you. you're just a regular person. if it turned out you supplied life changing drugs to minors behind their parents backs that were brewed in your bathtub, maybe then you'd have a problem. they dont just see a trans person and then decide to harass them

That literally isn't what was happening.

thats what is currently happening with keffals. not that kf is equivalent to HN or the like in terms of being nice, but this keffals isnt just a random trans person they latched on to and decided to harass. they (keffals) have done some seriously immoral stuff

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#99

Post by DanBC »

oynqr wrote: post #97
tomrod wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find it puzzling. You're putting the onus of being harassed on OP despite them following what they felt was reasonable opsec, rather than on the people harassing. At least, that's what your prior comments communicated.

If you paint a giant target on your back while also revealing who and where you are, people that dislike you for whatever reason are going to target you. That is reality and will continue to be reality even without a site like Kiwi Farms. My initial comment communicated that OP was probably going to be fine. Or not. It's not like I can tell.

Sure, but we have plenty of people who did not paint targets on their back[1], and who didn't reveal who or where they are, and they got doxxed by obsessive trolls at KF. Telling people "you'll be fine, KF won't dox you" is simply untrue for plenty of people who did get doxed.

[1] unless "existing while trans" counts as target-painting.

Re: Tell HN: Sites like Kiwifarms are destroying free speech

#100

Post by DanBC »

oynqr wrote: post #59
DanBC wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply untrue. EG "I am—well, I was—great at opsec. I got doxxed on farms because someone spent 50+ hours trying to nail me down until he ultimately “compare[d] her tweets to weather history to determine her city, and complied a parametric list of all the profs in nyc and went from there."

I don't see what an out-of-context quote disproves about my hypothesis.

You not knowing how to use a search engine makes you unqualified to talk about the obsessive use of search engines by KF users.
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