Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one • Hacker News Board

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#91

Post by jshen » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:45 PM UTC

dbingham wrote: post #81

dqv wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And since people have limited capacity to make lifestyle changes, we need them to focus that capacity where it will do the most good. Meat just isn't it - transporation, housing, energy - those are where it belongs. Diet is actually one of the easiest things for people to change. You have to eat every day. And there is evidence this personal choice has affected markets. Walmart wouldn't be selling more soy milk, sel…

Diet is also one of the most personal things to ask people to change, deeply tied in with their health, habits, cultures, and religion. If you ask them to do something that crosses some of those lines, you will have exactly the opposite effect you are claiming it will have. If you tell people that the most important thing they can do is adopt a diet that undercuts their health (many people cannot healthily maintain a…

No one is suggesting people become vegan. You keep constructing strawmen, and proposing things that will in fact dramatically increase the costs of meat and force the things you say you don’t want. It’s non-sensical.

“… while shifting to a vegetarian meal one day a week could save the equivalent of driving 1,160 miles.”

https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/sustainability...

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#92

Post by xor99 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:47 PM UTC

ryukafalz wrote: post #71

xor99 wrote: post #54

Some of the arguments seem misplaced via bad assumptions. This is exactly the approach that will alienate trad thinkers who need to be convinced in order for any effective action to be taken. Here are the issues I had: - Highly processed food, including fake meat, could be extremely bad for you. The point is we just don't know yet as there isn't good data. - Dense cities have the potential to be inhumane and not wort…

> Dense cities have the potential to be inhumane and not worth living in for various health (e.g. particulates, aerosols, nitrogen, disease) Sure they have the potential for this, but only if we don’t take these problems into account and mitigate them. Take particulates for example (and noise, which you didn’t mention but is also an issue); a lot is from cars. If we assume that every city resident will have and frequ…

True, but the potential must be possible given existing resources and political systems and not inhuman or utopian. EVs are possible and not utopian for the most part and so you are right. Although the energy crisis will heavily impact manufacture of EVs.

Another point: fertility drops massively in cities and this is an environmental concern as you need labour to transition industries at scale (e.g. nuclear plants, solar, wind, biomanufacture). Low birth rate dense cities are a recipe for disaster in terms of sufficient labour for a green transition.

The list of issues with the authors "I'm a misunderstood future hero" viewpoint goes on and on imo.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#93

Post by jshen » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:49 PM UTC

dbingham wrote: post #67

gruez wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Dramatically reducing meat consumption is the single best thing the average westerner could do to limit their environmental impact[...] > b) Because there is evidence that meat production done right IE intensive rotation grazing or silvopasture where the meat is grazed on a small section of land at a time and most of the land is left fallow most of the time can actually drastically increase ecosystem services. It…

Yes, agreed, reduction of meat consumption does need to happen. But saying "we should reduce meat consumption and ensure the meat produced is produced through these systems" is very different from putting it at the top of the list and drawing almost all focus to it.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/21/giving-u...

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#94

Post by gruez » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #85

The issue with environmentalism is that we are all the victims of multi decades PR campaigns crafted to deflect people attention from what’s really polluting towards meaningless things. People are angry their neighbours don’t properly sort their trash while recycling is a shame. Meanwhile planned obsolescence is prevalent. Making people feel guilty about their very small impact prevent them looking at the real culpri…

>People are angry their neighbours don’t properly sort their trash while recycling is a shame. Meanwhile planned obsolescence is prevalent.

Is this seriously an issue compared to trash in general? Sure, people bitch about how it's impossible to repair their iphones or macbooks, but even if you had to replace them every other year, the amount of trash they generate in relation to everything else is absolutely minuscule.

>It’s a conscientious strategy. Making people feel guilty about their very small impact prevent them looking at the real culprits: electricity production

But every kilowatt that you don't consume is a kilowatt that's not being generated by the electric grid. In that sense your actions have a direct impact on greenhouse emissions. Sure, you unplugging your electronics isn't going to single-handedly stop global warming, but that's because no one is single-handedly causing global warming either.

Also, you can literally buy a PV system for your house which would cut your emissions to zero.

>oil companies

see above, also electric cars.

>global manufacturing and shipping and construction

Well the goods you buy has to be manufactured somewhere, so presumably you're against the shipping rather than the manufacturing aspect. However, this source[1] says that shipping is responsible for 2.5% of global emissions, which isn't very significant.

[1] https://www.ukri.org/news/shipping-industry-reduces-carbon-e...

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#95

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:54 PM UTC

seasox wrote: post #4

Don‘t think about microwave vs. stove. Instead, do the following: 1. stop buying meat 2. stop eating meat 3. stop buying dairy-based products 4. stop eating dairy-based products 5. stop eating eggs, honey, fish 6. use public transport, if possible 7. don‘t fly, if possible Congrats, you now are an environmentalist.

[deleted]

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#96

Post by jshen » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

dbingham wrote: post #67

gruez wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Dramatically reducing meat consumption is the single best thing the average westerner could do to limit their environmental impact[...] > b) Because there is evidence that meat production done right IE intensive rotation grazing or silvopasture where the meat is grazed on a small section of land at a time and most of the land is left fallow most of the time can actually drastically increase ecosystem services. It…

Yes, agreed, reduction of meat consumption does need to happen. But saying "we should reduce meat consumption and ensure the meat produced is produced through these systems" is very different from putting it at the top of the list and drawing almost all focus to it.

while shifting to a vegetarian meal one day a week could save the equivalent of driving 1,160 miles.

Carbon Footprint Factsheet | Center for Sustainable Systems

https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/sustainability...

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#97

Post by WastingMyTime89 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:01 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #94

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #85

The issue with environmentalism is that we are all the victims of multi decades PR campaigns crafted to deflect people attention from what’s really polluting towards meaningless things. People are angry their neighbours don’t properly sort their trash while recycling is a shame. Meanwhile planned obsolescence is prevalent. Making people feel guilty about their very small impact prevent them looking at the real culpri…

>People are angry their neighbours don’t properly sort their trash while recycling is a shame. Meanwhile planned obsolescence is prevalent. Is this seriously an issue compared to trash in general? Sure, people bitch about how it's impossible to repair their iphones or macbooks, but even if you had to replace them every other year, the amount of trash they generate in relation to everything else is absolutely minuscul…

> Is this seriously an issue compared to trash in general?

No it’s not an issue that’s my point. What people sort is rarely recycled anyway. That’s why it’s a shame.

> But every kilowatt that you don't consume is a kilowatt that's not being generated by the electric grid.

Yes but what individual consumes is far less relevant than how this electricity is produced especially when you compare domestic consumption to industrial consumption. It’s far more impactful to lobby for the end of coal power plants than switch off your electronic.

> see above, also electric cars.

Yes, it’s finally coming quite slowly but for decades oil was heavily subsidised.

> Well the goods you buy has to be manufactured somewhere, so presumably you're against the shipping rather than the manufacturing aspect.

I’m not against anything. There are huge gain to be made in both shipping and manufacturing. Investments are far too low because they are not mandated.

That’s my point. The most significant gains are at an institutional or corporate level. Most of the debate surrounding individual behaviour is a distraction.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#98

Post by wizofaus » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:04 PM UTC

pasabagi wrote: post #87

wizofaus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reducing CO2 emissions is an emergency, and any other environmental considerations other than doing that is just arguing about deck chairs on the Titanic I don't think that latter sentence follows from the first at all - it's very much a slow emergency that will play out over decades and indeed centuries, and furthermore with a global population of 8+ billion, clearly it's not feasible for all of us to drop everyth…

It's a slow emergency in the sense that the effects will slowly increase, but it's very much a fast emergency in that the actions we take now are vastly more effective than they would be in a decade, or even a year. Because it's a self-feeding system, we will have to work much harder in the future to get the same results we could get by making reasonable mitigations today.

Sure - I don't think that changes my point though. And I have some sympathy for the argument that there may be some changes we shouldn't rush into without understanding them better (e.g. Sri Lanka's experiment with organic farming), or until we have better/cheaper technology available - what we should be doing now is a lot more research into mitigation and adaptation options.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#99

Post by dqv » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:06 PM UTC

Jill_the_Pill wrote: post #60

leereeves wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 5 reusable bags that I've used for a few years. That means I've used them maybe 100 times. Now they're starting to fall apart, and soon I'll need new ones. I wonder, since they're much heavier and clearly use a lot more plastic, whether I would have used less plastic with the disposable ones.

They do make cloth reusables

The cloth reusables are a little more harsh on the environment for initial acquisition, but I like that if they get holes, I can patch them. I'm not sure how feasible that is with the thicker plastic bags, and a cursory search doesn't bring anything up, but it's worth looking into patching the plastic bags.

Re: Being an effective environmentalist can often feel like being a bad one

#100

Post by ryukafalz » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 8:21 PM UTC

xor99 wrote: post #92

ryukafalz wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dense cities have the potential to be inhumane and not worth living in for various health (e.g. particulates, aerosols, nitrogen, disease) Sure they have the potential for this, but only if we don’t take these problems into account and mitigate them. Take particulates for example (and noise, which you didn’t mention but is also an issue); a lot is from cars. If we assume that every city resident will have and frequ…

True, but the potential must be possible given existing resources and political systems and not inhuman or utopian. EVs are possible and not utopian for the most part and so you are right. Although the energy crisis will heavily impact manufacture of EVs. Another point: fertility drops massively in cities and this is an environmental concern as you need labour to transition industries at scale (e.g. nuclear plants, s…

Low-traffic neighborhoods, grassy tram tracks for sound dampening, protected bike lanes, etc are also possible and not utopian. We do ourselves a disservice if we think about them as some unattainable ideal. They exist, right now.