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Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

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Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#91
post #7

It is not the first time when product simulates imperfections of the past technology to make product more authentic in customers eyes. Film color,lenses defects, lots of "analog" audio effects and now cars.

The feeling of controlling a machine = "imperfections" What I would expect a machine to say. I, for one, do not welcome our new robot overlords.

It's not about control. Transmissions in cars existed because internal combustion engines have a torque curve - the amount of torque you can get out of an engine varies with the engine speed, and so in order to maximize the torque at any given road speed you need to match the current road speed with the engine speed that produces peak torque. Now, there were different ways of doing this - manual transmissions vs semi-auto vs fully-auto and they did genuinely have pros and cons. For an ICE car there is genuinely a trade-off of how much control you have over the transmission.

BUT that's entirely untrue of electric cars, electric motors produce maximum torque at 0 engine speed and eventually drop at high speed. So there's simply no reason to be using a transmission at all. There is no decision to be made about gearing, you either have enough torque or you don't.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#92
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not all about pedestrians. Take Harley Davidson motorcycles for example. The sound is the brand. It's what people buy (into). Not saying that's right or wrong. Only that it's not strictly a pedestrian thing. Since in EVs it's more or less simulated, it would make since to have more than one setting and one of those to be off. p.s. The Dodge Charger has been ine of Dodge's most successful model. Gazillions of rec…

> It's not all about pedestrians. > and one of those to be off. It definitely is, Europe wouldn't pass a law mandating slow speed EV artificial noise if it was just a matter of branding

Because a know all government knows best? And has never overreached?

That said, it doesn't mean a manufacturer can't use sound to their benefit, regardless of what regulations says.

In fact, I believe in Norman's "The Design of Everyday Things" he sites an example (or two) where sound was part of the design of a product.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#93
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The feeling of controlling a machine = "imperfections" What I would expect a machine to say. I, for one, do not welcome our new robot overlords.

It's not about control. Transmissions in cars existed because internal combustion engines have a torque curve - the amount of torque you can get out of an engine varies with the engine speed, and so in order to maximize the torque at any given road speed you need to match the current road speed with the engine speed that produces peak torque. Now, there were different ways of doing this - manual transmissions vs semi…

It is about the feeling of control now. The reason people who still choose manuals do so isn't because of the torque curves -- automatics are now better at handling that -- it's because they like the feeling.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#94
post #82
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road? Getting rid of 50% of your car detecting senses doesn't seem like a good idea

Is this still a problem now that we have auto braking?

Yes.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#95

As a clutch enthusiast, I would welcome this innovation if it actually improved EV motor performance. If its only purpose is to simulate the ICE experience, I'm not interested.

Based on my experience with the Volt, which already needed traction control to keep the tires from spinning, it probably will offer slighlty different driving modes. Torquey, smooth, low-rev/low-heat highway mode.

There are multiple types of electronic traction control, active brakes and active power; in a high torque situation, active power manipulation is required. Electronic throttle has allowed better ramping of ice motors since the early 2000s. In high power sports cars it was bettered to be called launch control.

There's little downside to active power control unless you want the effect of not having it.

Side note to locking and viscous differentials (and for automatic transmissions, the "slushbox" torque converter), which have been providing passive traction control in cars for 70 years.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#96
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But they stopped making it like that. The new Leaf base models are $28k minimum, have lane assist, auto braking, high beam assist, smartphone integration, 8" multi touch display, voice recognition, and more. I paid around $12k in 2017 for a used 2015 Leaf. You can't do that anymore.

> auto braking, high beam assist Many of those bells and whistles you don’t want are designed to protect other road users as much or more than yourself. Not wanting the bells and whistles that only effect the driver and not others is fine, but it’s a bit selfish to discard the others. And yeah Some people will be like “I am responsible and don’t need those” but 50% of those will be the ones that need them most and it…

What about the people who can't afford a car because of these features?

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#97

This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficiona…

Electric engines are capable of insane torque, but prolonged operation in such a mode is far from efficient, cool and preferable from a reliability standpoint. Two seconds at the green light - yes, plowing your field with a Tesla - no. So I can see it making sense for vehicles that have have two modes of operation, for example a tractor or all-terain vehicle that also need to work on public roads at relatively high s…

[deleted]

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#98
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are economic and regulatory factors involved, it is more complex than people being resistant to change which no doubt makes up part of it. In the UK, for example, automatic cars are more expensive to buy and insure [1]. They also tend to be more expensive to learn how to drive as instructors mostly have manual cars to teach with. This incentivises new drivers towards manual cars, especially as younger drivers a…

I find it hard to imagine it would take significantly more than 15 minutes for most people to ‘learn’ how to drive an automatic car even if they only drove a manual before.

Muscle memory is a bitch. Two things I’ve done going from a manual to an automatic, sometimes a year after:

Slam on the brake as if you’re using the clutch. Automatic brake pedals are more than wide enough to accommodate two feet, and attempting to upshift and slamming on the brake instead can really rattle your brain bucket.

Throw the automatic into park. Less of an issue these days, but it used to attempt to actually go into park, with the shenanigans you’d imagine there would be as the parking pin attempted to engage with the forcefully spinning gears.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#99

This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficiona…

I am absolutely a manual gearbox fan for driving experience, and that's in Aus where it's not really idolized like it is in America. A lot more manuals here. But you are dead right. I think because it lacks all of the mechanical apparatus anyway, it's not like driving a regular car in automatic, it's like driving a different kind of vehicle. So you don't miss the gearbox.

All that said, I do appreciate the tendency for Japanese car companies to take care with the act of doing in their cars. I know Porsche gets the trophy for wholistic driving experiences, but Japan is doing a great job of bringing some of that back from the 90s bubble era cars.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#100
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> auto braking, high beam assist Many of those bells and whistles you don’t want are designed to protect other road users as much or more than yourself. Not wanting the bells and whistles that only effect the driver and not others is fine, but it’s a bit selfish to discard the others. And yeah Some people will be like “I am responsible and don’t need those” but 50% of those will be the ones that need them most and it…

What about the people who can't afford a car because of these features?

What about the people who can’t afford cars due to the expensive catalytic converters? Are those bad too?
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