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School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

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Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#91

Post by kthejoker2 »

Dalewyn wrote: post #88
cvoss wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American conception of democracy does not, by any means, refer to an ability to get the government to carry out the will of 51% of the populace. It is even specifically designed _not_ to do that, on purpose, for very good reasons. Here are some: - 51% of people can do wrong against the other 49%. - 51% of people can do wrong against themselves by making an uninformed decision. - Tomorrow the 51% become the 49% an…

>And yes, the vote for the president is not a raw popular vote. There is a level of indirection through another body that often does, but may not, yield the same result as a popular vote would. The Electoral College does, in fact, always reflect the popular vote: The popular votes of each respective state. Critics of the Electoral College fall flat and demonstrate their sheer ignorance because they keep trying to app…

> that weighs each state's political power appropriately

Define "appropriately" in the context of Wyoming and California.

Also explain what happens if only a single person votes for the same candidate in the 41 states and special districts wth the least EC representation,and 100% of the people in the remaining states vote for the other candidate.

The Electoral College is a hugely flawed mechanism both in terms of reflecting the will of the people vs the will of arbitrary land boundaries, and the actual division of "political power" due to forcing everything to round to the nearest integer and setting a (completely arbitrary) cap on the number of EC votes.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#92

Post by mlyle »

tomrod wrote: post #90
mlyle wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > I grew up in a neighborhood where the bully's dad was the police captain. > Everyone is accountable to someone. Escalate where needed. Frankly, this isn't really true-- and shows our immense privilege that we can often act with this assumption and have it come true. Most people don't have this experience. And especially a couple decades ago this was much less true for the type of circumstances we're discussing.

> shows our immense privilege that we can often act with this assumption and have it come true I take this to mean that you don't believe people are capable of understanding the system in which they live, nor advocating for systemic changes. This said, I don't see how this tangent ties to addressing the fact that a community leader abuses their presumed power to protect a bullying child. Outside of doing nothing and…

> I take this to mean that you don't believe people are capable of understanding the system in which they live, nor advocating for systemic changes.

I'm saying it takes enormous effort to escalate, and one's results in doing so are pretty closely tied to indicators of social class.

And then, there's litigation, which is expensive and out of reach of most. It's the only functional mechanism that prevents 55% of the population from oppressing some chunk.

edit: I misjudged which thread I was in, and had a bunch more of a reply here that isn't relevant.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#93

Post by mlyle »

throwoutway wrote: post #87
mlyle wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make them ignore everything happening outside school between students that have to work together at school, nothing good will come of it, either.

There’s a difference between a victim receiving a threatening text and showing it to administration, and the school demanding to see random teenager’s phones to look for potential crimes. If they have a suspicion, get an actual investigative police detective involved.

Do you think the police are generally actually willing to investigate harassment between teens?

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#94

Post by mlyle »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #86
mlyle wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make them ignore everything happening outside school between students that have to work together at school, nothing good will come of it, either.

If parents agree then the school can have access, however the default should not be that they can demand access or punish parents for not providing it.

IMO, if you are bringing a phone to school, and there is a substantiated allegation of a violation of a reasonable school policy involving the phone-- examining the phone should be fair game. And, this is what appellate courts have held.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#95

Post by mlyle »

candiodari wrote: post #79
mlyle wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree this is probably not extortion, but people step close to this line and have been surprised by prosecution or litigation. e.g. pay for the damages or I'm going to the police...

Even if you somehow agree with this, you must realise it won’t work. Good luck convincing the police, the prosecution or a judge that use of the justice system is extortion ...

We're not talking about use of the justice system-- we're talking about threatened use of the justice system. Which can still be OK, but one has to be very careful. People especially get into trouble using threats of a report to police to attempt to recover stolen property.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#96

Post by tomrod »

mlyle wrote: post #92
tomrod wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> shows our immense privilege that we can often act with this assumption and have it come true I take this to mean that you don't believe people are capable of understanding the system in which they live, nor advocating for systemic changes. This said, I don't see how this tangent ties to addressing the fact that a community leader abuses their presumed power to protect a bullying child. Outside of doing nothing and…

> I take this to mean that you don't believe people are capable of understanding the system in which they live, nor advocating for systemic changes. I'm saying it takes enormous effort to escalate, and one's results in doing so are pretty closely tied to indicators of social class. And then, there's litigation, which is expensive and out of reach of most. It's the only functional mechanism that prevents 55% of the po…

> edit: I misjudged which thread I was in, and had a bunch more of a reply here that isn't relevant.

No worries. I didn't see the response or anything.

When normal channels for escalation are prevented, abnormal channels with heavier consequences become cost-viable options. Reading through a history of Ireland's The Troubles is a reasonable place to consider without the baggage of most current political conflict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#97

Post by rdtwo »

mlyle wrote: post #93
throwoutway wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a difference between a victim receiving a threatening text and showing it to administration, and the school demanding to see random teenager’s phones to look for potential crimes. If they have a suspicion, get an actual investigative police detective involved.

Do you think the police are generally actually willing to investigate harassment between teens?

Some schools have police on staff to do the harassment.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#98

Post by rdtwo »

mlyle wrote: post #95
candiodari wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you somehow agree with this, you must realise it won’t work. Good luck convincing the police, the prosecution or a judge that use of the justice system is extortion ...

We're not talking about use of the justice system-- we're talking about threatened use of the justice system. Which can still be OK, but one has to be very careful. People especially get into trouble using threats of a report to police to attempt to recover stolen property.

Why not threaten? I know where I live there is zero chance police will actually recover the property but I suppose some percent of the time the other person might not know that.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#99

Post by rdtwo »

tomrod wrote: post #54
clcaev wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then the police. In some regions, this is a bit unrealistic. I grew up in a neighborhood where the bully's dad was the police captain. The bully would target brown kids and property of their parents (e.g. M80 down the chimney, among other atrocities). Everyone in town new the son acted with impunity. Kids our age knew it was worse: the dad actively encouraged his son, and gave him the M80s. No one would talk about…

Everyone is accountable to someone. Escalate where needed.

That may be true but you need to somehow be higher on the social ladder than the assailant. Good luck if you are getting harassed by police to get them to stop you need to have a direct line to the mayor or at least city council.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#100

Post by mlyle »

rdtwo wrote: post #97
mlyle wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the police are generally actually willing to investigate harassment between teens?

Some schools have police on staff to do the harassment.

Yah, that's true-- sometimes there's a SRO available. But I'm not really a fan of the SRO thing.

You'll find both administrators and SRO's abusing their powers, but I think the SRO potential for abuses are larger.

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