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The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

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Re: The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

#91
post #63
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought we would just hire more Black people, not create this absurd caste system of “diverse people” and associated purifying rituals. Also, if I’m being perfectly honest, that was before I was on the receiving end. I wasn’t the one having to attest to about my diversity a decade ago. Nobody was trying to teach my kids oppression narratives, or cultivate their non-white identity. Mea culpa. I still support it for…

Do you still support it for Black people? You could coherently support affirmative action for Black people while not accepting a complicated hierarchy of grievances (which: most people outside of Twitter and nonprofits don't). I'm glad you support it for women, but I'm not sure what the "different in significant ways" thing means in relation to it. Almost everything thinks men and women are different in ways.

> Do you still support it for Black people?

No. Most Black people don't want racial preferences (https://www.vox.com/2019/5/9/18538216/diversity-workplace-pe...). And I've come around to believing that the patronage of progressive whites is ultimately harmful to minorities. The fact is that they don't really know what causes structural poverty and don't have more than theories on how to fix it. If I was in their shoes, I wouldn't want to be a guinea pig for progressive social engineering.

> You could coherently support affirmative action for Black people while not accepting a complicated hierarchy of grievances (which: most people outside of Twitter and nonprofits don't).

Oh, it's spread way beyond that already. If it was just internecine fights at progressive non-profits I'd be amused by it, not worried.

> I'm glad you support it for women, but I'm not sure what the "different in significant ways" thing means in relation to it.

Sex is a different kind of difference than race. Designing office buildings to have separate bathrooms for men and women is an accommodation to biology; retooling promotion tracks to accommodate balancing motherhood and career progression is similar. But having separate bathrooms for different races is a different story! Women, moreover, are not a minority and are not socially isolated from the dominant group. If social engineering directed at sex has negative consequences, it will quickly become apparent to decision makers in the dominant group. Not so with social engineering directed at race. Most white progressives will never have to deal with the consequences of the policies they espouse.

Re: The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

#92
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody thinks it's funny. But what happened is subtle. It's not that GOP voters in the Illinois 3rd are sympathetic to Nazis. It's that a stray dog wearing a Democratic party sweater would have a better chance of being elected in that district than a Republican, so no serious Republican will run for the seat (when you run in a district, lose, and then try to run somewhere else, you're tarred as a carpetbagger). So th…

That's precisely my point: Nazi's will take advantage of party politics to gain positional advantage. And when it happens in enough places suddenly you get an avalanche of crap that is very hard to put back into the bottle. That is why we have what's called a 'cordon sanitaire' around the parties that are enablers of Nazism, the one thing that sets the US apart from NL right now is that we still have the luxury of do…

There isn't a mechanism to prevent "Nazis" from winning a primary election. The Republican candidate for an Illinois congressional seat is elected, not appointed. The GOP, of course, repudiated the candidate.

Re: The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

#93
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's precisely my point: Nazi's will take advantage of party politics to gain positional advantage. And when it happens in enough places suddenly you get an avalanche of crap that is very hard to put back into the bottle. That is why we have what's called a 'cordon sanitaire' around the parties that are enablers of Nazism, the one thing that sets the US apart from NL right now is that we still have the luxury of do…

There isn't a mechanism to prevent "Nazis" from winning a primary election. The Republican candidate for an Illinois congressional seat is elected, not appointed. The GOP, of course, repudiated the candidate.

What is the effect of such a repudiation? Does the person still end up with the seat but outside of the party?

Re: The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

#94
post #73
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would anybody care what you have to deal with in a Fed Soc meeting? I care about elected officials because they can actually do things.... How much control over your own thoughts and beliefs are you going to give random collections of people in positions of self-proclaimed authority? These folks have tremendous power on elected officials. When I say, "Democrats think that standardized tests are racist," I'm not…

> in a party where the folks who think the SATs are racist SATs are racist (to tptacek's point I'm on the progressive side, but I do think Biden agrees with me here [Biden education]). I don't know how you look at the data [SAT stats] and come to any other conclusion. We can discuss how much is solely the SAT vs. institutional racism, but the facts are pretty clear. --- Since no one else is defending race-aware admis…

> SATs are racist (to tptacek's point I'm on the progressive side, but I do think Biden agrees with me here [Biden education]). I don't know how you look at the data [SAT stats] and come to any other conclusion. We can discuss how much is solely the SAT vs. institutional racism, but the facts are pretty clear.

What’s the operative mechanism for that “racism?” And how on earth did white people design a “racist” test on which they underperform Asians?

> Fundamentally this is a clash of values. The left and academia (definitely not all Democrats) want racially representative cohorts. This is because they lead to better outcomes

I’m not sure what’s more offensive, the pop psychology, or the implication that I’d think or do my job differently if I were a white guy.

> Race-aware admissions policies have lifted countless millions of racial minorities in the US out of poverty and had a profoundly good effect on our society.

I don’t think you have the basis for asserting causation here. The largest upward economic mobility in the last 50 years has been experienced by racial groups that don’t benefit from preferences in university education (poor Asians such as Vietnamese).

> We're seeing increasing diversity in almost every good place: board rooms, operating rooms, the Supreme Court, millionaires, etc. etc. etc.

That’s because millennials are much more racially diverse than baby boomers. Outside of academia and Supreme Court appointments, racial preferences haven’t been practiced (because they’re unpopular, including among Black and Hispanic people). Racial preferences in corporate board selections are a new thing.

And the long con is efforts to keep Asians from doing the math and realizing that, when they’re 7% of the population but 35% of the engineers at FAANG, that “racial representation” math is contrary to their interest.

> I get this is frustrating for folks when they're denied admission, and I definitely understand to some degree the feeling of unfairness that comes with it being because of who you are (race, gender).

That’s not actually my frustration. My beef is that progressivism puts white people in charge of deciding what’s best for minorities. “Racial representation” for example is something white people want more than anyone else. Listen to “Nice White Parents.” Something you hear over and over is minority parents saying they don’t care so much about race-balanced schools. What they want is their mostly Black or Hispanic school to have the same resources as the mostly white school. On the opposite side of the political spectrum, Justice Thomas has said similar things. Overwhelming majorities of Black and Hispanic people support school choice. It’s white progressives that oppose it because it tends to decrease diversity at any given school. And of course polling shows that the majority of people in every minority group opposes racial preferences in both college admissions and employment. Prop 16 in California lost every single Hispanic-majority county. But white progressives love racial balancing, and continue to advocate it over minority opinion, because they end up in charge of systems of racial gerrymandering. When a minority kid writes a diversity essay, or a minority academic writes a diversity statement for tenure, it’s overwhelmingly white progressives that will be in charge of evaluating that against their worldview.

And because white progressives have different interests and incentives than their minority coalition members, they have to lean pretty heavily on the propaganda to keep minority voters, who have diverse and often conflicting interests, in line. This became glaring to me as someone from a Muslim country during the last few years. You got these efforts to cultivate “Muslim” identity, but in a way that’s divorced from what the overwhelming majority of actual Muslims think. That was mediated through folks like Ilhan Omar and Linda Sarsour, who gained prominence not because they authentically represent what American Muslims want—remember these are folks who preferred Bush over Gore not that long ago—but a version of Muslim identity that flatters and appeals to the white progressives that control the media and platforms.

Re: The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

#95
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a mechanism to prevent "Nazis" from winning a primary election. The Republican candidate for an Illinois congressional seat is elected, not appointed. The GOP, of course, repudiated the candidate.

What is the effect of such a repudiation? Does the person still end up with the seat but outside of the party?

The Illinois GOP ran an ad campaign against him ("say no to the Nazi") and he lost the general election by a 50 point spread. He ran in GOP primary in the next cycle and came in 3rd with just 1500 votes or so, 10% of the Republican turnout.

His nomination in 2018 was a fluke: he ran unopposed (it was a Democratic wave year election --- the Trump midterms, where we flipped the House†, and no Republican wanted to stake any of their time or reputation on a suicide mission to try to flip a safe blue seat). The IL GOP is unlikely to make the same mistake again: if Jones (the Nazi) appears on the ballot again, he'll have opposition, and it will depants him.

we flipped the House entirely with moderate Democrats, for what it's worth; the Bernie Sanders wing of the party didn't fare a whole lot better than Arthur Jones did in the IL-3

Re: The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

#96
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a party where the folks who think the SATs are racist SATs are racist (to tptacek's point I'm on the progressive side, but I do think Biden agrees with me here [Biden education]). I don't know how you look at the data [SAT stats] and come to any other conclusion. We can discuss how much is solely the SAT vs. institutional racism, but the facts are pretty clear. --- Since no one else is defending race-aware admis…

> The left and academia (definitely not all Democrats) want racially representative cohorts. This is because they lead to better outcomes "Lead to better outcomes" is going to need a lot of defending here. Since we're talking about outcomes for various races, I presume that "better" has to be defined in terms of society as a whole. So: 1. What is your definition of "better"? (And maybe also for "outcomes".) 2. What i…

This is fair; I didn't really cite anything for this claim, but it's pretty well accepted. The University of Michigan (undergrad and law school) had a couple of cases go to the Supreme Court about affirmative action and consequently put together lots of research to defend its position [0].

Some specific research on the educational benefits of diversity [1] ---

White students with the most experience with diversity during college demonstrated:

- the greatest growth in active thinking processes as indicated by increased scores on the measures of complex thinking and social/historical thinking (confirmed in the MSS and IRGCC studies);

- growth in motivation in terms of drive to achieve, intellectual self-confidence, goals for creating original works (confirmed in the CIRP study);

- the highest post-graduate degree aspirations (confirmed in both CIRP & MSS studies);

- and the greatest growth in students values placed on their intellectual and academic skills (confirmed in the CIRP study).

...

Students who took part in the IRGCC as first-year students, compared to a matched sample who did not participate in this program, showed greater growth over four years in active thinking, stronger citizenship engagement as seniors, greater acceptance of difference as compatible with societal unity, greater growth in perspective taking, greater mutuality in orientations toward their own groups and toward other groups, and greater understanding of conflict as a normal, indeed healthy, aspect of social life.

A bit about the legal system and the SAT [2] ---

A 1987 report of the Michigan Supreme Court, reached the same conclusion, noting that "the presence of minorities in the profession increases public perception of fairness." And a 1998 report re-affirmed that position, stating that by "reflect[ing] the diversity of the constituency it serves," the justice system avoids "[t]he appearance of bias, as well as the reality of bias."

...

For example, the SAT measures only about 18 percent of the factors that determine freshman grades. Even that small predictive value decreases over time. SAT scores are thus less predictive of sophomore grades, even less predictive of graduation rates, and even less predictive of professional success.

A warning and a reality check [3] ---

The impact of race-neutral admissions would be especially drastic in admission to professional schools. The proportion of black students in the Top Ten law, business and medical schools would probably decline to less than 1 percent. These are the main professional schools from which most leading hospitals, law firms and corporations recruit. The result of race-neutral admissions, therefore, would be to damage severely the prospects for developing a larger minority presence in the corporate and professional leadership of America.

...

By the year 2030, approximately 40 percent of all Americans are projected to be members of minority groups. More than $600 billion in purchasing power is generated by minorities and more than one-third of all new entrants to the workforce are persons of color. In this environment, a diverse corporate leadership can be valuable both to understand the markets in which many companies sell and to recruit, manage, and motivate the workforce on which corporate performance ultimately depends.

---

The idea here is that postsecondary education is really the gateway to power and prosperity in the US (sure there are other roads, but at a high level this is true). If we only use test scores--like the SAT--we'll shut out racial minorities from the process. The consequences of this is that education will suffer, our businesses and markets will fail to serve racial minorities, and faith in institutions will weaken as racial minorities are barred from the educations that will give them access to economic prosperity and impactful roles in our society. Furthermore, diversity is great for education for every student, not just the direct beneficiaries of affirmative action.

[0]: https://diversity.umich.edu/admissions/research/

[1]: https://diversity.umich.edu/admissions/research/expert/gurin...

[2]: https://diversity.umich.edu/admissions/research/expert/intro...

[3]: https://diversity.umich.edu/admissions/research/expert/bowen...

Re: The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

#97
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the effect of such a repudiation? Does the person still end up with the seat but outside of the party?

The Illinois GOP ran an ad campaign against him ("say no to the Nazi") and he lost the general election by a 50 point spread. He ran in GOP primary in the next cycle and came in 3rd with just 1500 votes or so, 10% of the Republican turnout. His nomination in 2018 was a fluke: he ran unopposed (it was a Democratic wave year election --- the Trump midterms, where we flipped the House†, and no Republican wanted to stake…

That's just about the best outcome then. But the way the vermin has been coming out of the woodwork as of late has me worried, too many things appear to be balancing 'just so'.

Re: The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

#98
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The left and academia (definitely not all Democrats) want racially representative cohorts. This is because they lead to better outcomes "Lead to better outcomes" is going to need a lot of defending here. Since we're talking about outcomes for various races, I presume that "better" has to be defined in terms of society as a whole. So: 1. What is your definition of "better"? (And maybe also for "outcomes".) 2. What i…

This is fair; I didn't really cite anything for this claim, but it's pretty well accepted. The University of Michigan (undergrad and law school) had a couple of cases go to the Supreme Court about affirmative action and consequently put together lots of research to defend its position [0]. Some specific research on the educational benefits of diversity [1] --- White students with the most experience with diversity du…

Good answer; thank you. (I didn't expect that detailed a response...)

Re: The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

#99
post #94
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a party where the folks who think the SATs are racist SATs are racist (to tptacek's point I'm on the progressive side, but I do think Biden agrees with me here [Biden education]). I don't know how you look at the data [SAT stats] and come to any other conclusion. We can discuss how much is solely the SAT vs. institutional racism, but the facts are pretty clear. --- Since no one else is defending race-aware admis…

> SATs are racist (to tptacek's point I'm on the progressive side, but I do think Biden agrees with me here [Biden education]). I don't know how you look at the data [SAT stats] and come to any other conclusion. We can discuss how much is solely the SAT vs. institutional racism, but the facts are pretty clear. What’s the operative mechanism for that “racism?” And how on earth did white people design a “racist” test o…

What’s the operative mechanism for that “racism?” And how on earth did white people design a “racist” test on which they underperform Asians?

I'm not a party to this argument, have no dog in the fight about the SATs, and sort of broadly buy what John McWhorter has to say about standardized testing (the last time I was paying attention to any of this, he had written about "the soft bigotry of low expectations").

But the question you're asking incredulously here is easy to answer: you get "whites" designing a test that advantages "Asians" if the goal of that test is not to maximize white advantage, but instead to minimize Black advantage. That's, like, not a historically unprecedented thing for American policy.

Re: The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

#100
post #91
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you still support it for Black people? You could coherently support affirmative action for Black people while not accepting a complicated hierarchy of grievances (which: most people outside of Twitter and nonprofits don't). I'm glad you support it for women, but I'm not sure what the "different in significant ways" thing means in relation to it. Almost everything thinks men and women are different in ways.

> Do you still support it for Black people? No. Most Black people don't want racial preferences ( https://www.vox.com/2019/5/9/18538216/diversity-workplace-pe... ). And I've come around to believing that the patronage of progressive whites is ultimately harmful to minorities. The fact is that they don't really know what causes structural poverty and don't have more than theories on how to fix it. If I was in their sh…

OK. Fair enough on all of this. The distinction you're drawing between interventions to improve gender parity and interventions to improve racial parity (or representation or whatever) make sense, at least in the sense that I understand where you're coming from. (I do not agree, regarding racial preferences for Black students, and I think it's a stretch to call something we've been doing for half a century "guinea pigging", but I'm not trying to persuade you, just to understand you).
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