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Is the United States Exceptional?

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Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#91

Post by palmetieri2000 »

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #87
palmetieri2000 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yet without great freedom, great innovation like Silicon Valley is impossible Nah, I disagree. First, individuals who were educated across the globe, money from across the globe, and access to global resources are all necessary (and a fundamental part of the history) of Silicon Valley's success. There really is no argument that Silicon Valley-like innovation do occur in distinctly non-free environments. For example;…

What are actual major technological innovations coming from China as opposed to making stuff invented in the West cheaper? They would have sent Steve Jobs to a reeducation camp before he had any impact. Sure there are smart people everywhere, but by and large they can only realize their potential by coming to a free country. Military driven pursuits like space race are about the only exception when totalitarian state…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Chin...

Feel free to explore that and I'm certain you can dig up plenty more examples of fields in which Chinese scientists have worked on or released significant projects.

I'm not going to get into an argument about the value of the innovations China has produced, although 'making stuff invented in the West cheaper' is hardly a disqualifier for counting as innovation. Many US companies only claim to fame is doing the same thing, innovating a process to provide something that was once expensive at a lower cost.

Further, (and once again, I am not in any way pro-China) it is incredibly misguided and the perfect example of my point about US parochialism to dismiss Chinese innovation because you don't think it 'counts' compared to Western innovation.

And lastly, we haven't even explored any of the less extreme examples. Many of the countries in the EU have less of what people in the US identify as makes them 'free' yet it would be simply nonsensical to say that they have not contributed to global modernization through science and innovation.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#92

Post by palmetieri2000 »

starkd wrote: post #23
palmetieri2000 wrote: post #14

The logic of "The US is the greatest if you likes X things and bad if you prefer Y" is poor because it can be applied to anything. Colombia during Pablo Escobar's time was probably considered pretty great if you were a Narco Trafficker. The article entirely misses the problem non-US people have with the US faffing on about greatness or its exceptionality. Which is that individuals from the US seem to see this as an i…

A lot of that is just patriotism, which is perfectly necessary for any country that hopes to thrive. But it's not just a matter of paying your taxes, as the government is a very different entity than the country itself, though they do overlap to various extents.

I entirely disagree with the perspective that patriotism is necessary for a country to thrive. There may be some argument that it is beneficial but I would like to see evidence of its necessity.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#93

Post by s1artibartfast »

ncmncm wrote: post #79
s1artibartfast wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I catch your meaning. Exceptional is a magnitude in my mind. It needs an adjective to go along with it

Like "fraught". Fraught with what? But leaving it unsaid is more convenient all around.

I see, haha. Like problematic. Problematic for whom?

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#94

Post by rfreytag »

The author fails to consider the direction or rate of change the USA standing versus other nations. For most factors considered by the author the outlook is not good for the USA. Churchill did say the USA can be counted on to do the right thing after trying every other option; but nothing changes for the better if one's head is stuck in the sand.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#95

Post by starkd »

palmetieri2000 wrote: post #92
starkd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of that is just patriotism, which is perfectly necessary for any country that hopes to thrive. But it's not just a matter of paying your taxes, as the government is a very different entity than the country itself, though they do overlap to various extents.

I entirely disagree with the perspective that patriotism is necessary for a country to thrive. There may be some argument that it is beneficial but I would like to see evidence of its necessity.

Then what you are thinking of is not so much a country but an economy.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#96

Post by starkd »

bitshiftfaced wrote: post #58
oblio wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the common misunderstanding is one of the core American tenets. It's one of the core American myths which is directly transmitted through American education, and the vast majority of Americans believe it. Even those that say they don't will recoil when you disprove or contest some key aspects, it's a very ingrained idea. Everyone wants to be part of an exceptional nation because then there's a chance th…

The "misunderstanding" that the parent poster was referring to was the meaning of "exceptionalism." Correct me if I'm wrong, but the misunderstanding that you seem to be referring to is whether or not the nation actually is the thing that people misunderstood exceptionalism to mean, which is "great," "superior," etc. That's more of an opinion, so I wouldn't say "misunderstanding" is the right word for it.

Many people use the phrase with the assumption of extraordinary greatness or superiority. Like in that aaron sorkin video clip the article references. Exceptional can mean better performance or better results, but it can also mean that its exceptional to the rule of what a nation state was traditionally founded on. That's what the revolutionary origin of it intended. The criticism people make of it is founded on a strawman, because it was never meant that America is superior.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#97

Post by cat_plus_plus »

palmetieri2000 wrote: post #91
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are actual major technological innovations coming from China as opposed to making stuff invented in the West cheaper? They would have sent Steve Jobs to a reeducation camp before he had any impact. Sure there are smart people everywhere, but by and large they can only realize their potential by coming to a free country. Military driven pursuits like space race are about the only exception when totalitarian state…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Chin... Feel free to explore that and I'm certain you can dig up plenty more examples of fields in which Chinese scientists have worked on or released significant projects. I'm not going to get into an argument about the value of the innovations China has produced, although 'making stuff invented in the West cheaper' is hardly a disqualifier for counting as inno…

Well, what is it that you can point at around you and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"? Or French innovation for that matter, talking about recent stuff not centuries old cuisine? France has been making wine way longer than Napa, but California (while by no means a libertarian paradise) has lighter regulation on both wines themselves and labor to produce them. These days Californian wines routinely beat French ones in blind tasting tests.

Germany, Japan and South Korea come to mind for important technological advances and Bollywood in India for prodigious high quality artistic output. So US is not everything, but it's part of a pretty small club of hyper innovative countries. What has come out of Russia (country where I was born and raised) recently except bad news? You could get a good education and study science, but visionaries like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk would have been smacked down before they could make an impact. They actually had a project that bred foxes into friendly pets to rival cats and dogs. But, good luck getting one in your house.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#98

Post by stjohnswarts »

srvmshr wrote: post #11

US definitely has exceptional successes, but there are so many systemic flaws which other countries may or may not have, and where US could vastly improve. * High medical costs * Highest maternal mortality among developed countries * Highest income gaps * High education cost & the vicious circle of college debt. * Increasing trends of bankruptcy & paycheck-to-paycheck sustenance. * Lack of public transportation issue…

This reads like a sudden kick to a friend in the nads and then telling him "you're a pretty good guy". What is the point of a post like this? It's not balanced at all if your last statement is to be considered. If you don't like the country then just come out and own it.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#99

Post by stjohnswarts »

palmetieri2000 wrote: post #14

The logic of "The US is the greatest if you likes X things and bad if you prefer Y" is poor because it can be applied to anything. Colombia during Pablo Escobar's time was probably considered pretty great if you were a Narco Trafficker. The article entirely misses the problem non-US people have with the US faffing on about greatness or its exceptionality. Which is that individuals from the US seem to see this as an i…

Nice job compartmentalizing 330 million Americans into your tiny box. Contrast how awesome Australia is to America and I think you'll see similar amounts of faults as you portray Australians as model citizens of the world and Australia as peak civilization.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#100

Post by cat_plus_plus »

srvmshr wrote: post #11

US definitely has exceptional successes, but there are so many systemic flaws which other countries may or may not have, and where US could vastly improve. * High medical costs * Highest maternal mortality among developed countries * Highest income gaps * High education cost & the vicious circle of college debt. * Increasing trends of bankruptcy & paycheck-to-paycheck sustenance. * Lack of public transportation issue…

Correcting these problems would involve pretty significant tradeoffs. For example, lowering medical costs includes improving public fitness, which will be branded as fat shaming. Improving maternal outcomes includes health education for girls that makes maternity a major focus, at odds with American feminism. Combating drug addiction involves strengthening borders. Reducing gun violence means discouraging fatherlessness and educating boys to maintain self control at all times, aka "toxic masculinity".

Note that I am not saying that these are the only causes of the problems you mentioned, but they are significant. And I agree that you can go to far with these and sometimes being more free / subject to less societal pressure to conform is worth sacrifices in health and safety. Just so long as we understand the tradeoffs and don't blindly look at perceived benefits of other countries without also looking at sacrifices made for these benefits.

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