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“The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

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Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#91

Post by CommieBobDole »

adamrezich wrote: post #32

I like Ron Gilbert. I don't like all of the games he's worked on but I like most of them. I think it's great that he's making this new game and he's doing it how he wants to. I will likely check it out when it's released and there's a good chance that I'll enjoy it. all of that said, I have a hard time understanding this situation. when you've been making games for decades and you've watched the Internet grow from no…

So, your argument is "The art is terrible and he must have known it was terrible and possibly made it terrible intentionally for some sort of complex culture-war publicity reason because the only other possibility is that he's actually offended by people telling him he's a terrible person and and idiot and a moron and only capable of producing absolute garbage because no person today would be offended by that because I guess it happens a lot because internet"?

Honestly, I'm trying to say something about this argument that falls within the site's guidelines for discussion and I can't really figure out a way to.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#92

Post by cptnapalm »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #66

It's not just gamers. The Internet has spawned a culture of "no consequences for letting your Id come out to play." If I walk up to Big Bad John, and call him a rude name, he will knock my teeth out. That's called "immediate negative feedback." Consequence immediately follows action. On the Internet (although this kind of thing predates the Internet. The Internet just commoditized it), this negative feedback loop is…

A Robert E. Howard quote I like: Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#93

Post by djur »

generalk wrote: post #15
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #2

I feel bad for him, but really the problem is he’s made a directorial mistake and it looks like the only point it’s gonna click is when the sales numbers hit. Will he realize his mistaken then or will he continue to blame the customer?

"continue to blame the customer?" He's never said that folks were wrong, or blamed anyone for anything. Seems to me like he just wanted folks to not be shitty. Take, for example, this comment by someone calling themselves _Proud Retro Fascist_: > Nice attempt at silencing critics. The game will fail because it is > objectively hideous and you will only have yourself to blame. > > Inthe end all you will have achieved…

> All you had to do was make a game with an art style that appeals to everyone, whatever it might be

It beggars belief that someone could write this sincerely and not realize how absurd it is. "All you had to do was make something perfect."

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#94

Post by adamrezich »

Osmose wrote: post #46
adamrezich wrote: post #32

I like Ron Gilbert. I don't like all of the games he's worked on but I like most of them. I think it's great that he's making this new game and he's doing it how he wants to. I will likely check it out when it's released and there's a good chance that I'll enjoy it. all of that said, I have a hard time understanding this situation. when you've been making games for decades and you've watched the Internet grow from no…

Just because bullying is common doesn't mean people should get used to it

what alternative course of action do you suggest instead? I don't understand why you think people should continue to be surprised by wholly predictable reactions contingent upon inherently flawed human behavior.

hopefully your solution isn't simple moral posturing that Things Should Be Better, because that might feel good to say but as a solution it's pretty obviously untenable.

regardless: either Ron Gilbert is, somehow—even after DeathSpank(!)—hopelessly naïve with regards to the state of anonymous shit-flinging on the Internet in 2022, or all of this moralizing and othering of Toxic Entitled Gamers (which we've definitely never seen deployed before!) is part of the PR plan for this game, to make people feel sympathy/empathy for a celebrated, legendary game designer being forced to read mean words on the Internet about something he made, as though this is some great moral travesty of our times and not just the baseline level of Internet interaction one should expect by now. again: why is any of this a huge surprise to anyone involved? why is Ron Gilbert taking any of this personally instead of just taking the tack of "lol well this is what I wanted to make so fuck off if you don't like it"?

either way, sad state of affairs, especially given that I'm looking forward to the game's release regardless. hopefully the lesson everyone learns from this is that people act like fuckwads on the Internet and there really isn't anything you can do about it aside from refraining from looking at it... which is a lesson I thought we all learned a long time ago.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#95

Post by AdmiralAsshat »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #30
the_only_law wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it's even an exclusively nostalgia thing. Over the past few years I've seen a lot of complaining around art style changes. Notably the Civ V -> Civ VI art style change pissed a lot of people off. Personally I loved the game, but a lot of series veterans didn't even bother to try it.

In the other thread about this, someone brought up the colloquially named "Zelda Effect". It is most evident when reviewing Wind Waker, which used cartoony cell-shaded graphics: contemporary comments featured quite a lot of vitriol over that decision, but the game is now fondly remembered as one of the best entrants in the series.

Fun fact: even series creator Shigeru Miyamoto wasn't thrilled with that art style at first.[0]

Makes me wonder if Twilight Princess was more his push than the widely-assumed theory that its direction was "for the fans" still disappointed from Spaceworld 2000.

[0] https://kotaku.com/the-legend-of-zelda-wind-waker-graphics-s...

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#96

Post by djur »

adamrezich wrote: post #32

I like Ron Gilbert. I don't like all of the games he's worked on but I like most of them. I think it's great that he's making this new game and he's doing it how he wants to. I will likely check it out when it's released and there's a good chance that I'll enjoy it. all of that said, I have a hard time understanding this situation. when you've been making games for decades and you've watched the Internet grow from no…

There would have been some degree of angry backlash to any art style that wasn't a meticulous recreation of MI 1 and 2 (a decision that would have also been criticized, but probably much more politely). I don't know why it's supposedly predictable that this particular art style would receive this degree of hostility.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#97

Post by kabdib »

bob1029 wrote: post #87
kabdib wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel even in gaming, the customer is always right at the end of the day. There are customers who are most definitely not right. The kind that cheat in online games, lie about it, dox you when you catch them. The kind of customer that tries to break into your systems or DDOS you. The kind that try to steal from you and your partners, or that harass other players, or that post pornography to your forums. The kind t…

> Then you have not dealt with real customers. This is a very bold assumption. Do you want to try some nuance here?

Sure. I'll edit that down a bit.

I have a fair amount of experience dealing with the type of customer who is not great, and who would be great to get rid of. A net positive for everyone, if it were possible.

Most customers are great. Some are not. Some are essentially (or demonstrably) criminals. At scale, it's a huge problem and very difficult to solve. The platitude "the customer is always right" is a fine principle until you need to deal with the real world of fraud, criminal activity and harassment.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#98

Post by zac23or »

jjulius wrote: post #64
zac23or wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen True, but Some open source communities are good candidates for "most entitled consumers". > I've seen it on HN also I will ever remember the launch of Dropbox here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863

The positive-to-negative comment ratio in that thread is overwhelmingly in favor of positive. A couple of the top-voted posts are more critical, sure, but once you scroll past those it's full of support and inquisitiveness. Edit: Even the person who posted the top-ranked comment, with the more negative tone, ended their follow-up response with, "All of your feedback was well-thought-out and appreciated; I only hope t…

> A couple of the top-voted posts are more critical

A lot of people have the same critical opinion, only they didn't comment.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#99

Post by dylan-m »

poszlem wrote: post #3
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #2

I feel bad for him, but really the problem is he’s made a directorial mistake and it looks like the only point it’s gonna click is when the sales numbers hit. Will he realize his mistaken then or will he continue to blame the customer?

I could not agree more. A lot of game producers get this arrogant approach of: "Making games would be such awesome job if it wasn't for those pesky gamers". The question here is: "Is this a really innovative graphical design that will get praised by future generations but is misunderstood now" or "Is this just a bad decision that the creator is unwilling to own". I tend to think it's the latter. Ultimately the sales…

> We have seen the same thing happen to Star Wars where the legitimate criticism was painted as toxicity of the fandom.

Hold on a minute here. Yes, the racist assholes got more attention than they deserved. But Rise of the Skywalker was thrown together by a bunch of marketing executives looking through all that “legitimate criticism”, making a big checklist, and feeding it into their lifeless movie factory to create a giant wish fulfillment fantasy for all those “real fans” who were upset someone would dare to shake up their stale, predictable franchise. It was a terrible movie. Lessons: Disney is a cancer, but also people on the internet, as plentiful as they are, have no idea what they want.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#100

Post by kroltan »

acheron wrote: post #78
the_only_law wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it's even an exclusively nostalgia thing. Over the past few years I've seen a lot of complaining around art style changes. Notably the Civ V -> Civ VI art style change pissed a lot of people off. Personally I loved the game, but a lot of series veterans didn't even bother to try it.

I don’t think that’s true about Civ 6. A lot of people who only ever played Civ 5 might have been “pissed” and didn’t bother to try it, because they didn’t realize that the Civ games change every time, but any actual “series veteran” was fine with it.

Obligatory mention of the FMV "advisors" of Civ 2, including a roman "cool dude" with sunglasses.

https://youtu.be/FlTIk80uBPg?t=269

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