Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts • Hacker News Board

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#91

Post by busterarm » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 6:14 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #75

71a54xd wrote: post #17

Big no thanks to this. If you hate where you work this much, improve yourself and work somewhere else. Replacing at-will with "just cause", progressive disciplining, with criteria for performance improvement plans. If you're three years into a career in tech (technical or not) and you haven't figured out that being PIP'd or indirectly told you're fucking up - making this language "nicer" isn't going to help anyone. A…

Data shows that people in unionized workplaces generally get higher pay than non-union. Perhaps it might be different in tech, where software engineers are usually already very well paid. Hard to say.

What data in what countries? In the US the overwhelming majority of union membership is in Federal employment and mandatory. That makes up 80% or more of US union employment. That leaves the usual trade unions and the film industry and in the former most places of employment are mandatory union (UPS are 100% Teamsters, for example). The whole film industry is set up where you work your way into the unions over years rather than opt in/out.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#92

Post by adam_arthur » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 6:14 PM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #80

TulliusCicero wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Competition applies to labor too, by the way Yes, which is why unions are great. Corporations bargain collectively by default; each is a large unit, with a lot of resources, composed of many people. Unions allow individuals to bargain collectively, to match corporations in terms of leverage, because few individuals are valuable enough to even come close.

> Corporations bargain collectively by default; Only with unskilled labor. My profession is skilled and the skillset is in demand and hard to find. I bargain for myself, thanks. I have repeatedly and at length discussed on HN about my 3 separate union membership experiences and how I will never again repeat them.

I wouldn't divide it between skilled and unskilled. It's more a product of supply and demand.

Unskilled labor can have decent bargaining power if there's a shortage of unskilled labor.

It just so happens that there tends to more frequently be shortages of skilled labor

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#93

Post by djbebs » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #85

busterarm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a large chunk of the employees who didn't want to unionize (25-35% of their peak headcount) left the company over some of the tactics employed in the contested fight over unionizing the company.

A recently unionized workplace can get hostile to workers who opposed it. This is fine by me: if you opposed the majority of your coworkers in their struggle for better material working conditions, then you should feel their resentment.

Can we also make a hostile work environment to pro-union employees? Or is this another one of those hypocrite things?

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#94

Post by pessimizer » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #85

busterarm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a large chunk of the employees who didn't want to unionize (25-35% of their peak headcount) left the company over some of the tactics employed in the contested fight over unionizing the company.

A recently unionized workplace can get hostile to workers who opposed it. This is fine by me: if you opposed the majority of your coworkers in their struggle for better material working conditions, then you should feel their resentment.

This is a more anti-union post than the one it's replying to (and also reference-free.)

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#95

Post by bestcoder69 » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

adam_arthur wrote: post #72

TulliusCicero wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Competition applies to labor too, by the way Yes, which is why unions are great. Corporations bargain collectively by default; each is a large unit, with a lot of resources, composed of many people. Unions allow individuals to bargain collectively, to match corporations in terms of leverage, because few individuals are valuable enough to even come close.

A union tends to be a monopoly on labor supply in most cases. Not a competitive labor market. Bargaining collectively = monopoly. They can raise wages up to the level of marginal profit of the employing company. Just the same as a company that's a monopoly could raise prices up to marginal value of the good to the customer. If the company can bypass the union to hire others, then it's not a monopoly. But if the union…

> Distorted wages for labor is not good for broader society

Real life on planet earth disagrees pretty hard with you. Google "___est countries". Pick a metric that shows policy impacts. Say, health, happiness, etc. The kind of metrics that aren't abstract BS and can't be cherry-picked.

Pick the first, say, five. Then look up their unionization rates.

I'll spoil it for you. Nordic countries win (it doesn't even matter the metric lol... they even top CATO institute freedom rankings somehow). They have massive levels of unionization. Finland has unionized entire sectors of the economy.

Counter-examples welcome. But say "GDP" and I'll show up at your house and throw a pie in your face.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#96

Post by arrrg » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

71a54xd wrote: post #52

arrrg wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does organizing mean you hate your workplace? Organizing means you want more power, more control. Also, there are many dimensions to liking or disliking your workplace. You may love the product your working on. You may really like your colleagues. You may also love the office environment. However, you may dislike the amount of vacation days, the lack of ability to work part time or the lack of paternal leave. Wor…

Part of being an Adult TM is separating emotions from work. Admittedly, I was able to work on some very cool shit at Amazon - however the job made me hate my life. Ergo - adult logical cycles were spent, decided to get a new job after leetcoding for a bit. The people who aren't skilled enough to get new jobs or improve themselves (also holds true in any industry) will always be some degree of fucked. I admit, some un…

What does your first sentence mean? That you cannot have likes and dislikes and that you cannot want to improve the things you dislike?

I don’t get it. Could you explain that.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#97

Post by pessimizer » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 6:16 PM UTC

djbebs wrote: post #93

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A recently unionized workplace can get hostile to workers who opposed it. This is fine by me: if you opposed the majority of your coworkers in their struggle for better material working conditions, then you should feel their resentment.

Can we also make a hostile work environment to pro-union employees? Or is this another one of those hypocrite things?

The people who could create that hostile work environment refuse to cooperate with each other.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#98

Post by djbebs » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 6:16 PM UTC

FrancoisBosun wrote: post #36

0des wrote: post #8

Is it mandatory for employees to join the union?

In Canada, it is not. If you don’t join the union, you may still benefit from the union’s bargaining power so you will pay some dues to the union. I would presume this varies per region.

So it is mandatory...

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#99

Post by moooo99 » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 6:16 PM UTC

xibo9 wrote: post #88

busterarm wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations bargain collectively by default; Only with unskilled labor. My profession is skilled and the skillset is in demand and hard to find. I bargain for myself, thanks. I have repeatedly and at length discussed on HN about my 3 separate union membership experiences and how I will never again repeat them.

"unskilled labor" What an extremely elitist phrase.

> What an extremely elitist phrase.

This! I hate when people talk about "unskilled labor" because there is no such thing. There definitely is work that requires less training than other jobs, but there is no such thing as unskilled labor.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#100

Post by vkou » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 6:17 PM UTC

djbebs wrote: post #93

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A recently unionized workplace can get hostile to workers who opposed it. This is fine by me: if you opposed the majority of your coworkers in their struggle for better material working conditions, then you should feel their resentment.

Can we also make a hostile work environment to pro-union employees? Or is this another one of those hypocrite things?

> Can we also make a hostile work environment to pro-union employees?

That's already the default in any non-union workplace, which is to say, the majority of workplaces.