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Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

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Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#91

Post by DeathArrow »

ellen364 wrote: post #59
xenadu02 wrote: post #16

I don't think his tweet is saying SWEs don't deserve 400k. He's saying some business models are not viable at that price. So in relation to his tweet that's not wrong. If your medical business needs to hire doctors for 20k/yr to be viable then you don't have a business. At the end of the day that's no different than a child saying they're going to start a money tree business so they can just pick money off the trees…

> Software is an extremely scalable business where the marginal cost of every copy beyond the first is nearly zero. and > If you can drive the cost of doing business and your inputs toward zero almost any business idea could theoretically make a profit... but real markets are not so accommodating. I agree with many of your points, but these vary by product. For example, FAANGs sometimes have applications where some i…

>I’ve also noticed that FAANGs sometimes outsource work that doesn’t scale as easily. The contracting companies are either in cheaper countries or they’ll accept a smaller profit margin. Or both.

Or they open subsidiaries in other countries. Google are developing Fit Bit in Romania and they are paying 10x smaller wages.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#92

Post by DeathArrow »

radarsat1 wrote: post #30

I'm frankly super confused about salaries right now. Currently job hunting in Europe and the other day when a recruiter asked how much I was looking for I gave my current salary as a minimum of 65 euros/h and the recruiter kind of chuckled and told me that if I'm a good match I could ask for like 90. Okay, sounds great. So a few days later I was having an initial interview for a senior ML position and when asked how…

Is it a gross or a net amount?

In Europe when being contacted to work as a freelancer or contractor, they ask for a gross rate per hour.

The company aren't going to pay anything else and you are responsible for taxes, health insurance, social services, pension funds and so on.

The highest rate I was offered in Romania is 50 EUR / hour and I refused. I am not going to work with a B2B contract for less than 65 per EUR per hour.

For working contracts, with all taxes payed, contributions to social services, unemployment funds, health insurance and pension funds, as a SWE you can reach a 4000 to 5000 EUR in Romania and about 7000 to 8000 in Germany. These are net, not gross.

If you are employed as an architect instead of SWE, you can make a bit more, so now I am waiting to find a good SW architect position.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#93

Post by DeathArrow »

radarsat1 wrote: post #55
user568439 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the recruiter meant 90€ as freelance and you asked 100k as permanent? In Europe de permanent contract includes a lot of benefits and a big risk for the company: holidays, unemployment coverage, sick coverage and normally other things like bonus, pension, phone and sometimes medical insurance and car (consultants). For the rates I’ve seen first hand, 90€/hour of freelance corresponds to 70-80k hired salary

your numbers concur pretty well with what another poster replied, so thanks! I'll try to tailor my answers accordingly in the future, really helpful cheers. It just gets so confusing when people post their salaries like in the US and other places and I just don't know what is reasonable to ask for. Learning though, glad for the answers here.

>when people post their salaries like in the US and other places and I just don't know what is reasonable to ask for.

When people are posting US salaries, they are usually quoting the gross amount. In Europe people are usually quoting the net amount because people care what they can spend, not some sum written on the paper.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#94

Post by DeathArrow »

ellen364 wrote: post #69
radarsat1 wrote: post #30

I'm frankly super confused about salaries right now. Currently job hunting in Europe and the other day when a recruiter asked how much I was looking for I gave my current salary as a minimum of 65 euros/h and the recruiter kind of chuckled and told me that if I'm a good match I could ask for like 90. Okay, sounds great. So a few days later I was having an initial interview for a senior ML position and when asked how…

Recruitment is bizarre right now. I chat to recruiters sometimes and in the last few months have specifically asked about salaries in the UK. Essentially, “What’s the going rate for a web dev with 5 years experience?” The answers have ranged from “£45k-55k” to “£100k-130k”. The most common response seems to be “£70k-80k”. And everyone who’s answered seemed confident they know “the market rate”. Sometimes people even…

I get few job proposals per day. If one seems interesting, I am always asking for a salary range first, to not waste time. It worked wonders as I was able to find a good paying position relatively fast, instead of doing countless interviews and find out I don't like the payment. People were receptive in general, I think employers do not like to waste their time either, so talking about salary in the first place is a good thing.

The only company that was reluctant to discuss wages was Microsoft, but I was still able to convince the interviewer to verify that my asking salary was within their range.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#95

Post by DeathArrow »

ellen364 wrote: post #76
radarsat1 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a bad idea, do you think it would come off well in an interview setting to come right out and just get that question out of the way by (politely) beating them to it? Genuinely curious if this could be a good approach.

In a proper interview, I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable asking the money question first. E.g. I’ve chatted to managers who consider it a sign the candidate is only interested in money, not the company. Though, as I write, it occurs to me that kind of manager and company probably won’t pay well. So maybe asking the money question yourself would filter out the most price sensitive companies? Interesting idea, but not…

>the candidate is only interested in money, not the company

Of course I am interested in money, otherwise I would work for a charity, not a company.

I don't see anything wrong in being interested in getting money. Companies are not interested in the candidate, but in the amount of money a candidate can generate for them.

Exchanging work for money is business, not a romantic affair. And in a business you optimize for profit. More so when it is your only income, taking a huge part of your time and life and you have a family to take care of.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#96

Post by DeathArrow »

Okkef wrote: post #40
radarsat1 wrote: post #30

I'm frankly super confused about salaries right now. Currently job hunting in Europe and the other day when a recruiter asked how much I was looking for I gave my current salary as a minimum of 65 euros/h and the recruiter kind of chuckled and told me that if I'm a good match I could ask for like 90. Okay, sounds great. So a few days later I was having an initial interview for a senior ML position and when asked how…

There is a huge difference in hourly paid people (consultants/freelancers) and salaried people (staff). Someone who makes 100k a year in a salaried position would charge 200 euro per hour as freelancer. A freelancer we hire for 100/hour would be salaried at 70k tops.

Are those gross or net amounts?

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#97

Post by DeathArrow »

IceMetalPunk wrote: post #13

Depends entirely on the specifics of the job and the location of dev. Salaries are often determined partially by the cost of living for the employee, which varies from one place to another. I know, for instance, that people on my team at work make more than me for the same job simply because they live in NYC, which has a higher cost of living than I do here in suburban south Florida. My personal philosophy about mone…

>many people would call me crazy for it

I wouldn't call you crazy. I think that settling for an amount that allows you to live the way you like and not asking for more is a sensible thing.

The only thing I am not ageeing with is being underpaid. If you can make 2x working full-time, why settle for x? It would be nicer to only work half the time and make x, if x is what you need. Time is at least as valuable as money, if not more.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#98

Post by aristofun »

If you bring less than 400k to the table — you’re overpaid. Else — otherwise.

This is why same skill level people get different salaries in different companies.

Yes, some companies overpay hoping for rapid growth. Others - underpay, accounting for risks or just because they can (like in Europe).

It’s obvious. As obvious as overfunded startups with worthless business models out there.

But without an army of unknown musicians there would never be Mozart.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#99

Post by abnercoimbre »

DeathArrow wrote: post #95
ellen364 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a proper interview, I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable asking the money question first. E.g. I’ve chatted to managers who consider it a sign the candidate is only interested in money, not the company. Though, as I write, it occurs to me that kind of manager and company probably won’t pay well. So maybe asking the money question yourself would filter out the most price sensitive companies? Interesting idea, but not…

>the candidate is only interested in money, not the company Of course I am interested in money, otherwise I would work for a charity, not a company. I don't see anything wrong in being interested in getting money. Companies are not interested in the candidate, but in the amount of money a candidate can generate for them. Exchanging work for money is business, not a romantic affair. And in a business you optimize for…

> Companies are not interested in the candidate, but in the amount of money a candidate can generate for them.

> And in a business you optimize for profit.

This is why it's in the employer's best interest to say that you're family, or that loyalty is a virtue. It makes it easier to low-ball your salary and keep it from rising too much.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#100

Post by namaria »

cactus2093 wrote: post #70
radarsat1 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

really appreciate the numbers, thanks. Indeed 65 is what I said I make as a freelancer, tried to explain that I would have different expectations as an employee but I had no idea what number to say, so this is very helpful. That said I find it crazy how big the difference is on these two conditions and am struggling a bit now to justify why I would want to go back to being an employee. Maybe I'll drop the idea. On th…

It's a learning experience! Don't feel bad, now you've learned a good lesson for future interviews. > That said I find it crazy how big the difference is on these two conditions and am struggling a bit now to justify why I would want to go back to being an employee As an American, I gotta say it seems like the benefits of being a full-time employee in Europe only really make sense if you plan on slacking off. It's ve…

I don't disagree, but you have to consider the fact that we seem to be ending a good two decades boom, and contractors/freelancers will be the first to go. Having a permanent contract here in the Netherlands makes it super expensive to fire someone so the lesser salaries come with a big expectation of continuity in hard times or a nice retroactive adjustment in form of a big severance payout.
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