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California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

nytimes.com

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Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#91
post #50
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics are not reality. Crime stats fell because the DA was so tolerant of crime, people stopped bothering to report anything but the most serious ones.

So in this land of topsy turvy logic, high crime stats is a good thing, because that means they're being reported?

If an Application team is finding and fixing a lot of vulnerabilities and bugs is that a good thing or a bad thing?

The answer is it depends on the context.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#92
post #44
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?

I'm in a fairly purple state and I don't consider myself a Republican, a Democrat, or even a moderate. I have some views that align with one party and some that align with another. If anything, the right has largely shifted to the center over the course of my life. For example: they, along with Democrats for quite a while, were opposed to gay marriage. While I'm sure there's still a small contingent that would roll t…

[deleted]

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#93
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?

Because the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively. So by having the left come more towards the center, the whole political spectrum would shrink back towards the middle.

Does someone want to explain to me how a recall vote in San Francisco is supposed to punish radical Leftists who hold no elected office, refuse affiliation with a mainstream political party, and basically function solely to organize protests/pickets outside the offices of actual politicians?

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#94
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abortion is about to become illegal in almost half the country, police departments overwhelmingly haven't been defunded, congress didn't pass an infrastructure bill, the federal minimum wage is still $7.25, there's still been no repercussions for 1/6, trans kids can't get proper healthcare in 2 republican States (and growing), there's no universal healthcare or student debt forgiveness, and there's still no meaningfu…

>Abortion is about to become illegal in almost half the country A Supreme Court decision reversing one that was dubiously made in the first place. It'll be interesting to see how many of those states will roll back abortion from being illegal to something more reasonable. >Police departments overwhelmingly haven't been defunded An incredibly far left idea >Congress didn't pass an infrastructure bill It's pretty far l…

>It's pretty far left to say we need to spend trillions on new projects at a time with high inflation and a shortage of workers

No it's not. The high inflation is precisely because of underinvestment in fixed capital and infrastructure.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#95
post #44
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?

I'm in a fairly purple state and I don't consider myself a Republican, a Democrat, or even a moderate. I have some views that align with one party and some that align with another. If anything, the right has largely shifted to the center over the course of my life. For example: they, along with Democrats for quite a while, were opposed to gay marriage. While I'm sure there's still a small contingent that would roll t…

> If anything, the right has largely shifted to the center over the course of my life

The Republican party is vastly more anti-abortion and anti-gun control now than in the past. It is mainstream in the GOP to talk about punishing women who get abortions. And in New York, a Republican congressman who said he'd vote for gun control in the wake of a mass shooting in Buffalo, New York, in addition to the one in Texas faced so much backlash from his party he had to quit politics.

I think what you've fallen for is a rhetorical trick Republican politicians use. They say, "Of course Roe vs Wade is settled law." And then they tirelessly work to undermine it, which is exactly what's happening right now.

> From what I see, Republicans largely want things to stay the same or be rolled back by a decade or so.

If what you said is true, the GOP would support the right to abortion and an assault weapons ban. Instead they are rolling back abortion rights by 50 years (Roe was decided in 1973) and expanding the "right" to purchase high powered firearms without background checks and carry them, concealed, without any training, to a degree literally never seen in US history.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/facing-backlash-republican-...

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/03/1096108319/roe-v-wade-alito-c...

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#96

war on crime causes crime, draconic penalties do not prevent or even majorly reduce crime if a there is a long list of crime causing things which are not fixed. Like in no specific order: poverty, bleak future, failed "common" education system, state supported/tolerated exploition of citizens, failing police, falling justice system (if you ask they are meant to protect citizens), systematic deep rooted discrimination…

Tell it to former USSR citizens (btw with the exception of education your list describes that country perfectly). Everyone was poor but it didn't make everyone a criminal. Millions of suddenly impoverished middle class people in the 90s didn't turn to crime either. Normal people are normal people and criminals are are criminals regardless of external circumstances.

But you are right, war on crime makes no sense. It should be on _criminals_. Basically, if they have strength left to exercise in prisons they are clearly too well fed and not worked hard enough.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. Which is far far more strict then most EU countries. And the current legality status is in a legal gray are as far as I know, which is also worse then in many EU countries, through in practice in some states might not. And sure there are EU countries which…

> The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. While it's true that some republican run states are going this direction. If we look at the original case that will likely lead the SC to overturn Roe v Wade (again, it hasn't even happened yet), would be a European style ban, where abortion is allowed up until 15 weeks (this is a typical European cutoff). I believe the Mississippi…

Totally false. In most western European countries, women can trivially get approved for abortion after 15 weeks. For example, in the UK, if two doctors agree that it would be too damaging for a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, she can get an abortion even after 15 weeks.

Compare that to the man you said represents the mainstream of the GOP. Ron DeSantis signed a law banning abortion after 15 weeks "without exemptions for rape, incest or human trafficking.

https://www.bpas.org/get-involved/campaigns/briefings/aborti...

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/14/politics/desantis-signs-a...

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so much "as a result of the DA's policies" in particular (although I don't doubt this contributes), but all over the country discretionary policing has fallen as a result of pressure from anti-policing activists on politicians and police departments. The result is that crime overall rises, but "lesser" crimes which are more likely to fall under the rubric of "discretionary" appear to fall because the police…

In SF, rapes and robberies are both down in 2021/2022 compared to 2018. Murder and shootings are comparable with 2018. Car thefts are up. All of which completely goes against this narrative you've described. The rising crime narrative is entirely an artifact of the pandemic causing historically low crim because for like 8 months no one did anything.

> In SF

I'm not sure about SF in particular, but my account was for the US as a whole.

> Murder and shootings are comparable with 2018.

This is incorrect. SF homicides:

    Year | Homicides
    -----+----------
    2018 | 44
    2019 | 41
    2020 | 48
    2021 | 56
That's a 25% increase since 2018. Source: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/sf-mayor....

> The rising crime narrative is entirely an artifact of the pandemic causing historically low crim because for like 8 months no one did anything.

Again, I'm not sure about SF in particular, but nationally the "rising crime narrative" is entirely an artifact of soaring crime, especially violent crimes. For example, homicides have been falling for decades, and then the trend abruptly reversed around 2014. Criminologists have identified specific reversals in cities that experienced large BLM protests immediately following those protests, and this is all pre-pandemic data (the 2020 and 2021 data is still being compiled and analyzed as far as I know).

For example (https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w27324/w273...):

> For investigations that were not preceded by "viral" incidents of deadly force, investigations, on average, led to a statistically significant reduction in homicides and total crime. In stark contrast, all investigations that were preceded by "viral" incidents of deadly force have led to a large and statistically significant increase in homicides and total crime. We estimate that these investigations caused almost 900 excess homicides and almost 34,000 excess felonies. The leading hypothesis for why these investigations increase homicides and total crime is an abrupt change in the quantity of policing activity. In Chicago, the number of police-civilian interactions decreased by almost 90% in the month after the investigation was announced. In Riverside CA, interactions decreased 54%. In St. Louis, self-initiated police activities declined by 46%.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#99

war on crime causes crime, draconic penalties do not prevent or even majorly reduce crime if a there is a long list of crime causing things which are not fixed. Like in no specific order: poverty, bleak future, failed "common" education system, state supported/tolerated exploition of citizens, failing police, falling justice system (if you ask they are meant to protect citizens), systematic deep rooted discrimination…

Tell it to former USSR citizens (btw with the exception of education your list describes that country perfectly). Everyone was poor but it didn't make everyone a criminal. Millions of suddenly impoverished middle class people in the 90s didn't turn to crime either. Normal people are normal people and criminals are are criminals regardless of external circumstances. But you are right, war on crime makes no sense. It s…

I would my home country of Romania to your example. Life was miserable through 80s but there hardly any visible crime. Certainly no shoplifting and no vagabonds. We used to have a saying "te bate ca la militie" to describe the consequences of being hauled to the local police (back then called militia) station for "questioning".
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