How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020)

#91

Post by I_am_tiberius » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:08 PM UTC

SkyAndSand wrote: post #72

I_am_tiberius wrote: post #61

I find it a pity that YC requires companies to found a parent company in the US in order to invest in them. That's the only reason I have not applied.

Not true anymore: > We invest in US, Cayman, Singapore, and Canada corporations. We have founders who apply to YC from all around the world and many have already incorporated in their home countries. https://www.ycombinator.com/deal I am currently trying to figure out what the best jurisdiction for an international team actually is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31620700

Are you sure? - they still have this in the FAQ section:

"What if we incorporated as a non-US corporation?

If your company is already incorporated somewhere other than the United States, Canada, Singapore or the Cayman Islands, in order to participate in YC you will need to create a parent company that is in one of those jurisdictions. The existing company will then become a subsidiary of the new United States, Canada, Singapore or Cayman parent company. While lawyers will drive this process, it will require a significant effort on your part."

https://www.ycombinator.com/faq

Re: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020)

#92

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:08 PM UTC

gyulai wrote: post #26

cloogshicer wrote: post #3

Thanks for the post. Reading this made me quite angry - politicians here in Germany always talk out of their asses about improving the situation for startups, but when it comes to removing these ridiculous administrative hurdles, absolutely nothing happens. In Austria, where I live, it's even worse. It's not even possible to start a limited liability company without at least 35k starting capital in the bank.

The loophole I've successfully used in the past in Austria was to incorporate a Ltd in the UK and operate it in Austria (similarly to how, in the U.S. The free movement provision, which is one of the central pilhars of the E.U., extends to free movement of legal persons, and does not end with free movement of natural persons. The UK is no longer in the EU, but you could go with the Republic of Ireland or Malta.

>The loophole I've successfully used in the past in Austria was to incorporate a Ltd in the UK and operate it in Austria

Do you have any more details on the benefits of this operation? AFAIk, operating any business in Austria subjects you to Austrian labor and tax laws, negating any advantage.

I was thinking about opening a LTH in a cheap Eastern RU country instead of the UK, and operate it in Austria but that last part seems to throw a wrench in my idea.

Re: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020)

#93

Post by SkyAndSand » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:09 PM UTC

kpz wrote: post #57

SkyAndSand wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you simply register a "Gewerbe" you are personally liable for any damages the business incurs.

Yes, but are there many risks for a digital startup? (Serious question, i can't really think of any)

I'd say that highly depends on what your product actually is :)

Re: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020)

#94

Post by hef19898 » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:09 PM UTC

tobilg wrote: post #82

hef19898 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is stupidly easy to create a GmbH or UG, especially the UG. Also very cheap, if you push it two days are enough, will cost you around 100 bucks. And if you just want to run a side business, one that doesn't have the potential to ruin you, just run it as an independent income. You can even have your employees participate in your GmbH, either in enquity or profit. That most German start-ups don't simply means they w…

That’s not correct. Creating a UG will set you back hundreds of EUR for notary fees, commerce registry entries etc. And you have to prepare your annual accounts, which, if you let a professional handle it, will easily cost you hundreds more

I love how being compliant, taxes, accounting, other regulations seems to be such a hard thing for people looking for millions of VC money while litterally thousands of companies do so every day. I do see a pattern there so, after all ignoring regulations is still a viable business model for SV companies.

Re: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020)

#95

Post by SkyAndSand » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:10 PM UTC

jokethrowaway wrote: post #77

I'm not sure this would fly well for Germany. Generally, in most European countries, if you're resident in one country and open a company in another one (and start paying corporate tax there) you need to prove there's a valid reason to have the company there. It can be hiring people there, having a director there, having an office, having your board meeting there. Otherwise the company where you reside can argue that…

I am wondering, too - how would you actually solve this issue if you have founders living in multiple countries, inside and outside the EU (created a new topic here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31620700)

Re: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020)

#96

Post by marcinzm » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:10 PM UTC

nudpiedo wrote: post #54

marcinzm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is stupidly easy to create a GmbH or UG, especially the UG. Also very cheap, if you push it two days are enough, will cost you around 100 bucks. What about the required 25k to start a GmbH?

Nowadays it is 12,5 and it becomes the capital of the company which you can use to buy infrastructure and for the payroll.

12,500 is a lot more than 100 no matter where it goes to.

Re: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020)

#97

Post by SkyAndSand » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:10 PM UTC

solar-ice wrote: post #66

leobg wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why then would a Delaware Corp?

It won't. Good luck employing people in Germany as a US company too - you really want at least a German subsidiary for that.

Can't you work around this by using https://www.letsdeel.com/ or https://remote.com/?

Re: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020)

#98

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:10 PM UTC

wewxjfq wrote: post #88

robert_foss wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've started a UG in Germany. It is one of the worst professional experiences I've ever had. It's extremely cumbersome, bureaucracy heavy, slow and expensive. In addition I've never encountered as many scummy companies (GmbH or otherwise) as in Germany. Corporate rules and culture are both complete trash. For reference I've started companies in Sweden, and I can do the full process online in an afternoon. Probably le…

> In addition I've never encountered as many scummy companies (GmbH or otherwise) as in Germany. Corporate rules and culture are both complete trash. That's the quintessential HN comment I'm talking about. Just hasty generalizations and accusations. Tiresome.

Anecdotally, I've also never encountered as many scummy and cheating companies and GmbHs as in Germany.

Granted it's just another data point but I feel there's real substance behind this Germany bashing and it's not uncalled for.

Also, Germany is the only EU country I've encountered where scummy law companies break citizens privacy hand in hand with ISPs to spy on your internet traffic and send you fines if you torrent anything copyrighted, while at the same time marking huge fuss about how important privacy is in Germany. Ironic.

If you move to Germany make sure to get defense insurance to protect yourself if you ever need to use a lawyer.

Re: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020)

#99

Post by hef19898 » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:11 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #80

justusw wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you never make any profit, you don't need to set aside 25 % of your profits.

>If you never make any profit Sure but then that's not really anyone's goal starting a company in Germany. So ultimately you will have to deal with this issues if you don't fancy being homeless.

Profit =|= revenue. You pay taxes on profit, if you invest all you operational profits in, e.g., hyper growth you won't pay any taxes at all.

Let's not touch VAT so.

Re: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020)

#100

Post by 2Gkashmiri » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:11 PM UTC

SkyAndSand wrote: post #49

rrrrrrrrrrrrr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a student sidegig you can easily just found a small businesses for like 35 EUR and do business. There’s also GbRs that can theoretically be formed on a paper towel. Thought, it will probably not be easy to raise money this way.

.. and you are personally liable for anything damages caused by the business.

As a "student" or even a starup entrepreneur, you usually don't have "assets" under your name that your creditors can take over in case of a potential lawsuit.

If I were an entrepreneur and my startup would incur 100 million dollars of liabilities, my assets won't cut it so the more appropriate to say " you are personally liable for damages to the extent of your assets. "