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What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

dynomight.net

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Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#91
post #7

> Moreover, ethylene in the concentrations that cause trances is extremely flammable, and there’s no historical record of any explosions or fires. That doesn't seem to be true. Herodotus 2.180: "When the Amphictyons paid three hundred talents to have the temple that now stands at Delphi finished (as that which was formerly there burnt down by accident), it was the Delphians' lot to pay a fourth of the cost." [1] I'm…

Nice. Also this article seems to conflate the ethylene concentration in water with that in air.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#92
post #51

The final point about positivism is important. Geeks love naturalistic explanations of mythological ideas, however far fetched. Trolls are really cultural memory of Neanderthals. Dragons are dinosaurs. The witch craze was due to ergot poisoning etc. If anyone is interested in what actual historians think about such theories, read for example this: https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/06/delphic-oracle.ht... Tl/dr:…

I completely misread this as

> Greeks love naturalistic explanations of mythological ideas, however far fetched.

And wonder whether this is also broadly, historically true?

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#93
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think first it would need to be established that she did in fact see the future.

Yes. The explanation “it was all made up by one or more writers” sufficiently covers not just the precognition, but also the hallucinations and even the existence of the oracle.

I think enough prediction requests have been found that the existence of the Oracle is non-controversial.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#94
Temporal lobe epilepsy is hypothesized[1][2] to be a contributing factor towards the visions, fits, etc that various prophets throughout history experienced. Something like half of those with temporal lobe epilepsy experience hyperreligiosity or salvation[3] with their condition, along with religious hallucinations, delusions, etc.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_lobe_epilepsy#Effects...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschwind_syndrome#Hyperreligi...

[3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2654983/

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#95
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drugs" is simple enough. Actually training naked virgins to go bananas without some chemical help seems a little more complicated. Something the article doesn't seem to consider is the possibilty that there was some kind of (natural or built) chamber where the gas could get trapped and thus concentration be higher.

Not training. Maybe she figured out that making up bullshit gave her power. Seems a lot simpler than "drugs".

For some people, yes, but various cultures throughout time gave people, that we'd diagnose with some form of schizophrenia-related conditions today, somewhat revered or respected positions as prophets, medicine men, etc for the very real mental experiences they had. That is to say that some people may have been in it for power, but there are some that were earnest in their experiences, having really experienced something spiritual, even if it was just in their heads.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#96
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that it an example of explicitly non-linguistic thinking—hence not all thinking can be defined or limited by linguistic structures.

a counterpoint is that this example begs the question; it assumes a priori that “thinking about gears” is not a language itself. which, who knows, it might be!

Unless you already start with the assumption that all mental processing is language, I don't think "rotating gears in your head" qualifies as a language. I mean, you can have discussions about what constitutes "language", but there are a number of expected attributes, and visually rotating shapes in your mind doesn't possess any of them.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an example of Positivism. I think the primary problem with positivism is the knowledge about the universe is never fully attained, so it feels more like a confused reasoning process. The assumption the scientific method will explain everything someday is irrational. When is that going to happen? With more work? What positivism really is, is a commitment to a bunch of work in the future to "prove" something is…

Well okay, but when the scientific method produces knowledge, the voracity of that knowledge can be checked by an observer. When a mystic convinces a large number of people that their opinions are in fact, truths, that is not a process that can be checked by an observer, and the “knowledge” produced has nothing tying itself back to reality.

The process cant, but the knowledge can be. You seem to be arguing against dogma, not a mythopeotic view. And fair call, religious power structures do a lot of harm.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#98
post #42

People speak in tongues at church because they are expected to, have seen it before, and they lie about it. It seems that should be the presumption in the case of Delphi, too, rather than a biochemical mechanism or "antipositivism". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_in_tongues#Medical_re...

I don't think most people "lie about it", at least not intentionally. I think it's more likely they get really caught up in the moment or something among those lines. I am interested in what in what it would be like to go to a concert of a bar with one of these people.

One of my takeaways from listening to a lot of Telltale (an ex Jehovah's Witness atheist channel on youtube) was that the stereotypical charismatic Christian glossolalia is probably a learned skill. I have heard that people who left these groups are still capable of exhibiting it on command.

I have not actually met an ex-charismatic who could demonstrate this to me, but I would be interested in meeting one. I have never done glossolalia myself, I always thought there was something off about it. I have been at a charismatic church where people were practicing it. I was relieved that they were not extremely loud, they weren't rolling or flailing around, but I admit I found the audible chaos of it somewhat unnerving. I've heard charismatic Christians speak of the presence of God, or of spiritual power as a feeling of "electricity" or tingling. It seems to me that a major aim in that movement is to feel highly energized.

I ended up in a faith tradition that has a difficult but slow, calm, scripted practice, one that evangelicals would be likely to call "vain repetitions". I think the accusation could stick that I badly wanted some beauty and order. I believe that the gift of tongues is experienced as a miraculous automatic translation in the spoken word; we see it as a reversal of what happened at the tower of Babel.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#99
post #27

This isn't asking the hard question though: how did the oracle see the future?

I think first it would need to be established that she did in fact see the future.

The predictive power that most people have (at least with normally functioning brains, for some neutral definition of normal being the baseline) is surprisingly good. Executive function requires making many such predictions and forecasts every minute. If I had to give a rough estimate, I’d say slightly greater than a coin flip for future event outcomes.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#100

I know that magic is poo-pooed and all, but, have you considered that answer as well? Or perhaps they weren't hallucinations, and instead divinations. Calling what the Oracle of Delphi had "hallucinations" puts a bad spin on it from the onset. Or lets not get hung up with the word "magic". Lets call it a 5th type of energy. Mechanical detection don't work, but a number of humans can feel it. Hard to measure for sure.…

> makes verification hard/impossible

In other words, unfalsifiable. That means it's unscientific too.

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