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Google's most ridiculous trick to force users into adding phone number

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Re: Google's most ridiculous trick to force users into adding phone number

#91

Every tech company is losing the war against credential stuffing. I have a friend working at a series B startup with None of the service providers who claim to fix the issue are worth their weight in salt. Shape, Akamai, none of them have a grip on the problem because the attackers are constantly evolving. As you can see, even Google is capitulating despite all the fud that people on HN spread about the company being…

There are far better ways to stop credential stuffing than requiring a phone number that would be immediately obvious to the people at Google - Hashcash, for instance[1]. 250M login attempts times a few seconds of CPU time is a lot of compute cost to inflict on an attacker who is carrying out the same attack against a bunch of other services at once, and virtually nothing to the few thousands of active users who shou…

Mostly, there are so many IPs those attackers can use. When I look at the smtp/imap failed authentication attempt logs, the patterns are fairly obvious. Different IPs trying similar looking emails in a sequences. I think in most cases where banning the IP, even only for 24h, will do the trick (and /64 block for v6).

Also there is something to be said for generating the password yourself and sending it in clear to your users by email. The reality is that if the attacker has access to your client’s emails, it’s game over anyway because of password recovery. And this way you enforce that your clients will not reuse a password, and will have a strong non brute forceable password. And if you get hacked, at least you didn’t leak that precious password your users reused everywhere else. The only issue I can think of is that’s because smtp is the most neglected protocol of the internet, there is no way to ensure the email will be encrypted in transit.

Re: Google's most ridiculous trick to force users into adding phone number

#92

Every tech company is losing the war against credential stuffing. I have a friend working at a series B startup with None of the service providers who claim to fix the issue are worth their weight in salt. Shape, Akamai, none of them have a grip on the problem because the attackers are constantly evolving. As you can see, even Google is capitulating despite all the fud that people on HN spread about the company being…

> Anyone who thinks this is about advertising/collecting personal data is out of their minds.

Sorry, but that trust has been burned and I don't see a path to recovery. Support hardware tokens or get off my lawn.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/twitter-uninentionally... https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/27/yes-facebook-is-using-your...

Re: Google's most ridiculous trick to force users into adding phone number

#93
post #6

It's not even about not willing to spend 1$ for a random phone number. Here's a list of things that are wrong with what Google does: - If you want to read your email, you have to use app specific password. I'm ok with that. - You can't generate app specific passwords if you don't have 2FA enabled. That's some artificial limitation made to force you into adding phone number to your account. - You can't use authenticat…

> You can't use authenticator app to enable 2FA Are you sure about that? I don't think this is true. I definitely don't have a phone number linked to my Google Account and I have TOTP enabled as well. They even have the Advanced Protection mode which doesn't allow SMS or the authenticator app. Really though, you should do the last thing. Buy some security keys and enable Advanced Protection.

Yeah I am sure too, my last company used google apps and I didn't want to use my personal number for google, but they forced me to insert a number in order to use 2FA, so I had to ask for a work SIM just so that google would STFU, it was said to be a backup method for google authenticator, f*uck google

Companies using google apps, keep in mind, you pay money for a service but if there's google involved, you're still a product, just avoid it

Re: Google's most ridiculous trick to force users into adding phone number

#94

Google is no saint, but there's absolutely no reason to ascribe ill intent to collecting phone numbers of 2FA setup. The reason is simple: Google has billions of users, and at any given time, a lot of them break their devices and lose access to 2FA credentials. Phone numbers, despite all their flaws, are still the most reliable long-term and mostly-immutable attributes which can service as a proxy for identity which…

This is an explanation for why Google might ask for phone numbers. This is not an explanation for why Google might require phone numbers. The only valid reasons for the latter are (1) to collect your PII and/or (2) because they think that they know better than you and they're going to force you to do a thing because they think it's in your best interests - in other words, a tyrant ruling over a techno-feudalistic soc…

[deleted]

Re: Google's most ridiculous trick to force users into adding phone number

#96

Every tech company is losing the war against credential stuffing. I have a friend working at a series B startup with None of the service providers who claim to fix the issue are worth their weight in salt. Shape, Akamai, none of them have a grip on the problem because the attackers are constantly evolving. As you can see, even Google is capitulating despite all the fud that people on HN spread about the company being…

There are far better ways to stop credential stuffing than requiring a phone number that would be immediately obvious to the people at Google - Hashcash, for instance[1]. 250M login attempts times a few seconds of CPU time is a lot of compute cost to inflict on an attacker who is carrying out the same attack against a bunch of other services at once, and virtually nothing to the few thousands of active users who shou…

[deleted]

Re: Google's most ridiculous trick to force users into adding phone number

#97
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are far better ways to stop credential stuffing than requiring a phone number that would be immediately obvious to the people at Google - Hashcash, for instance[1]. 250M login attempts times a few seconds of CPU time is a lot of compute cost to inflict on an attacker who is carrying out the same attack against a bunch of other services at once, and virtually nothing to the few thousands of active users who shou…

Mostly, there are so many IPs those attackers can use. When I look at the smtp/imap failed authentication attempt logs, the patterns are fairly obvious. Different IPs trying similar looking emails in a sequences. I think in most cases where banning the IP, even only for 24h, will do the trick (and /64 block for v6). Also there is something to be said for generating the password yourself and sending it in clear to you…

Attacks coming from the same IP address are literally kids just running port scanners.

Blocking individual IP addresses has never been a valid mitigation against professional attackers. Attackers will just pivot to renting a different botnet from different geographies/ip ranges.

If your service has any level of scale, there can be double digit percentages of users who are sharing an IP address with a hacked device. Blocking attacker IP addresses will block users of your service.

Re: Google's most ridiculous trick to force users into adding phone number

#98
post #55

I too was hit by this a few months ago, after having to create a Google account for work, and worked around it by running an android emulator where I installed their authenticator app. This was enough to get past the stupid "you have to have a phone" requirement, and gave me access to the TOTP secret, which I then promptly added to my favourite open source 2FA utility. Screw you, Google, you're not getting my phone n…

Which android emulator do you use ?

Re: Google's most ridiculous trick to force users into adding phone number

#99

Every tech company is losing the war against credential stuffing. I have a friend working at a series B startup with None of the service providers who claim to fix the issue are worth their weight in salt. Shape, Akamai, none of them have a grip on the problem because the attackers are constantly evolving. As you can see, even Google is capitulating despite all the fud that people on HN spread about the company being…

at 25,000 login attempts per user if you're not doing common sense rate-limiting of attempts per username, and rate limiting per IP space origin (either discrete ipv4 /32 or attempts from within a whole ASN), you've got other problems.

the rate-limit and blockage time for attempts should increase ban time/lockout-timer on an exponential time scale the more that a single browser/useragent/browser fingerprint/IP makes incorrect attempts.

yes obviously there are people out there with fully automated systems who will try massive lists of commonly used plaintext passwords for authentication if you don't throttle/rate-limit it.

Re: Google's most ridiculous trick to force users into adding phone number

#100
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one reason I definitely prefer SMS auth to any other method at the moment. What if your phone is damaged while traveling and you are away from where you stored your recovery keys?

You can always bring a paper recovery code or FIDO authenticator (both of which are safe against SIM swapping attacks).

we've been told for decades to "not write passwords on postits" and we're really back to square one...
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