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Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

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Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#91

Post by hamburglar »

IshKebab wrote: post #19
bko wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I just tried downloading an APK directly (telegram). Android warns me file might be harmful. Do you suggest they shouldn't warn someone when they download an APK? It's also browser specific and I imagine all major browser give the same kind of warning because , you know, downloading an APK directly from a website might be harmful.

To be fair, installing an app from the store might be harmful too.

Yes. Require them to give the same dire warnings about apps from their own store, or remove them both.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#92

Post by rchaud »

> “However, Google is now modifying its rules to require Bandcamp (and other apps like it) to exclusively use Google Play Billing for payments for digital goods and services, and pay a revenue share to Google,” [Bandcamp CEO Ethan] Diamond says.

A great example of two polar opposite worlds:

- Bandcamp: lets artists set their prices, lets consumers purchase lossless DRM-free files. Mobile site works fine without Google. No uninvited algorithmic feeds ruining your personally curated collection.

- Google: entire business relies on the open web, yet the mobile platform follows a sharecropping model from the 1800s, the video platform pays creators fractions of a penny per view, and everything is nailed down with DRM.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#93

Post by CharlesW »

_readyforit wrote: post #59
riversflow wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only outrage I feel is that Tim Sweeney is using the compensation of starving artists, the main demographic on Bandcamp as I understand it, to try and make himself and EPIC richer or more relatively powerful. I don't give two hoots about "breaking up the App Store Model" and I doubt many/most musicians do either. I personally feel that 30% isn't even outrageous considering the value proposition. Relatively rich/p…

The thing is… 30% is a lot for the artists on Bandcamp. Say I sell my album for $10 for easy math. I think Bandcamp takes something like 10-15%, there’s a small PayPal fee (~1%) and the rest goes to me. That’s ~$8.41 in my pocket. If Google takes their cut at the beginning for providing…the App Store where the buyer downloaded the app… the artist’s cut becomes ~$5.89. For a $10 album. It just doesn’t line up with the…

> The thing is… 30% is a lot for the artists on Bandcamp.

How do you feel about 10%, which is what it probably would be according to TFA?

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#95

Post by CharlesW »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #69
kotaKat wrote: post #23

So... Sweeney wasn't happy with 30%, and now he's not happy with a sweetheart 10% deal? Pull the app and pull a Fortnite at this point and make people sideload it. I'm too tired of watching this fight over and over again, especially now that they're in the position of actually having a special deal that was given to them (even if it was pre-Epic).

He's not ok with sweet heart deals conceptually. Because they're bullshit

Then I have good news, in that this isn't some special "sweetheart deal". 10% is the standard rev share for music streaming apps that participate in Google's "Play Media Experience Program".

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#96

Post by jollybean »

RC_ITR wrote: post #58
PeterisP wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antitrust rules apply for abuse of dominant market power (which Google certainly has) even if theoretical alternatives exist. It does not matter that it's not literally a monopoly, as that is not the legal bar that needs to be passed for Google to be limited in what they can and can't do.

>which Google certainly has You’re conflating some ideas here. A marketplace owner always has “dominant market power” over the market they own. That’s the nature of marketplace, the owner gets to set certain rules like the types of payments accepted at the marketplace, because that is literally the job of a marketplace. Google also has dominant market share, since their App Store is the best for android, but that’s l…

"Google also has dominant market share, since their App Store is the best for android, "

No, it's preloaded on every device, that's why.

If some other App Store, 'App Store B' were preloaded on every device, and App Store were not, then that 'App Store B' would ultimately be 'that much better'.

That said - I don't agree with Epic here.

If you want your merchandise in Walmart, it's fair that Walmart does the selling and the checkout. You can't put your merch in there, and expect to be able to buy it 'online' and walk out with it. This is irrespective of Walmart's position in the general market.

Google Play preloads are another question.

Sideloading is also another question.

But stuff in Google Play, I think it's fair if they set the rules there.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#97

Post by jollybean »

Tagbert wrote: post #10
warning26 wrote: post #6

While I generally agree with Epic's positions, it seems like a bit of a stretch here, considering that Android allows both sideloading and alternative app stores. Unlike on iOS, there's nothing on Android stopping Bandcamp from releasing a standalone sideloadable app with any payment system they desire.

Though the install rate would drop considerably. Most users are not comfortable with sideloading.

I doubt that.

I don't think users really even care.

'Download Here' and it's good to go.

I don't think people think that much about 'viruses' in their mobile.

Some do of course.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#99

Post by drusepth »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #13
Tagbert wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though the install rate would drop considerably. Most users are not comfortable with sideloading.

Google ensures that they are they are frightened away with scary warnings.

This seems necessary and good. There are occasional bad actor apps that slip through Google's app store review process and there are good apps that get sideloaded, but sideloading entails literally zero review. It's entirely up to the user to determine whether they're trustworthy or not, which is a paradigm shift for most who don't think phones could harbor anything worse than just obtrusive ads in apps.

There are plenty of good apps I've sideloaded, but thinking of the majority of the population being relatively tech-illiterate, there's a big difference between a bad actor having to convince someone to change their settings to enable sideloading (despite a big, scary warning) and then convincing them to install an app versus just convincing someone to run/install a random APK. Case in point: a huge percent of the population unknowingly opens and/or installs random bad binaries on Windows every day.

Sideloading (and all that entails) should absolutely be allowed, but the "scary warnings" do a great job preventing a huge portion of people from unknowingly opening a huge threat avenue to some of their most valuable devices/information.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#100

Post by drusepth »

hamburglar wrote: post #91
IshKebab wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, installing an app from the store might be harmful too.

Yes. Require them to give the same dire warnings about apps from their own store, or remove them both.

The difference is that the store includes any amount of heuristic tests meant to scan for malicious activity, and directly installing an APK has no such safety net.

You can argue that the testing Google does is bad or minimal, but it seems like the ideal solution would then be "improve the testing". I'd also prefer to see such tests moved on-device so they could apply to APKs from any source, but I don't know how technically feasible that'd be; depends on how they're doing the testing, I guess.

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