Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships • Hacker News Board

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#91

Post by lazide » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

Victerius wrote: post #7

The Navy builds its ships with steel, and the grades of steel used in the construction can experience rust. Solutions: Switch to 100% stainless steel. Stainless steel is an alloy and contains a minimum of 11% chromium. This allows the formation of a protective film of chromium oxide which acts as a shield against rust. The protective film will re-form if damaged. Corrosion resistance can be further enhanced with the…

Stainless steel is prone to stress cracking corrosion (SCC) in saltwater environments which causes catastrophic sudden failure when under load. You REALLY don’t want that in a ship.

Galvanizing basically works like anodic protection. Already used, but a galvanized coating will disappear (even a very thick one) in just a few years at sea, and can’t be reapplied in the field effectively. Paint works better.

Cor-ten works best where the rusting surface isn’t exposed to wear directly (like a ship hull). Something like a bridge span member or a shipping container side, or a side of a building. It has to rust for it to work.

If exposed to a particularly corrosive environment it still rusts through pretty quickly. A lot of Corten products (like shipping containers) still get painted to slow the process down.

Ships have desired operational lives of 20+ years. Painting and rust removal is the only way that works.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#92

Post by jwithington » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

killjoywashere wrote: post #41

sevensor wrote: post #17

This looks like the same phenomenon as the crisis in staffing nurses that was discussed here the other day. Careerist, indifferent management giving the people on the front line inadequate resources and then blaming them when things start to look shabby, or when someone dies. Scapegoating the people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, who are tired, inadequately trained, and inured to a climate of normaliz…

As a Navy physician who has dealt with COVID and fatigue, I think the chronic low pay contributes to a lack of people which leads to overwork, exhaustion, a sort of "this is my lot in life" acceptance of mild to moderate depression. And you get to the point you just look away for your own sanity. Healthcare workers get paid less as you get closer to the coasts. And military gets only very modest pay adjustments for h…

The Navy pays officers very generously across all fields, EXCEPT medicine and JAG. URL JOs will take a pay cut for the first several years (at least) after leaving for the civilian sector. I never, ever heard a URL peer get out because of financial reasons.

FWIW, BAH (pay for housing that is tax-free) is $4000 for an O-6 in Point Loma v. $2777 in Offut, NE. Seems to be aggressive adjustment, no?

Enlisted pay might be another story…

EDIT: I know one guy who griped about pay once…kind of in passing. Went on to be a YC founder haha.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#93

Post by epolanski » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

edmundsauto wrote: post #28

epolanski wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also like the part of looking sharp, this is also a non-zero factor in any field, including IT. Between two professionals, if one looks sharp, clean and fit, while the other one does not, it is hard not to conclude one has also more self discipline.

This bias is a consequence of what Kahneman called “What You See Is All There Is.” It’s bad logic and ascribing signal when it’s actually projections of the observer. That isn’t to say there is no effect - people might start to see themselves as more disciplined if they look sharp. “Look good, play good”, as my coach used to say.

> It’s bad logic

Is it so far stretched to say that a person who is in good shape, takes proper care about his hygiene and stuff like hair/beard might be a more self disciplined and organized person compared to someone that is lazy about his hygiene, physical condition and appearance?

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#94

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

Victerius wrote: post #7

The Navy builds its ships with steel, and the grades of steel used in the construction can experience rust. Solutions: Switch to 100% stainless steel. Stainless steel is an alloy and contains a minimum of 11% chromium. This allows the formation of a protective film of chromium oxide which acts as a shield against rust. The protective film will re-form if damaged. Corrosion resistance can be further enhanced with the…

Wood is also corrosion resistant, maybe they could make the ships out of wood. /s

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#95

Post by Victerius » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 2:27 PM UTC

wiredfool wrote: post #21

Victerius wrote: post #7

The Navy builds its ships with steel, and the grades of steel used in the construction can experience rust. Solutions: Switch to 100% stainless steel. Stainless steel is an alloy and contains a minimum of 11% chromium. This allows the formation of a protective film of chromium oxide which acts as a shield against rust. The protective film will re-form if damaged. Corrosion resistance can be further enhanced with the…

You’re not a marine engineer, are you?

... I'm not.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#96

Post by sgent » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #67

edmundsauto wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there have been budget cuts, the US Navy’s budget went from ~80B in 2001 to over 160B today. Given what the US spends as a % of GDP, it feels like this should be more than enough. From afar, the problem appears to be decision makers in the Navy refusing to reduce scope and deciding to understaff.

US GDP (nominal) in 2001: USD$10.6T US GDP (nominal) in 2021: USD$23T

What percent was spent on capital budgets in 2001 vs 2021? The navy is currently undergoing building 4 or 5 major ship replacement cycles, replacing all of its aircraft (Top 10 airforce in the world), etc. My guess is that most of that budget is mandated by congress for that rather than for bottom paint on supply ships.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#97

Post by jonhohle » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #17

This looks like the same phenomenon as the crisis in staffing nurses that was discussed here the other day. Careerist, indifferent management giving the people on the front line inadequate resources and then blaming them when things start to look shabby, or when someone dies. Scapegoating the people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, who are tired, inadequately trained, and inured to a climate of normaliz…

It’s almost as if heavily regulated and entrenched organizations with limited competition develop complacency.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#98

Post by nradov » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 2:35 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #82

chromatin wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in healthcare, I doubt this is a major causative factor (presuming when you say roles you mean physicians and nurses) -- the physicians are extremely supportive of the nurses, and their demands for more pay and better conditions in all the healthcare settings I've worked. The real problem is the unaccountable bureaucratic management, which are neither physicians nor nurses, and the numbers of which continue…

It's driven (or at least exacerbated) by the physician shortage. If it weren't profitable to have large numbers of staff per doctor, there wouldn't be large numbers of staff per doctor.

Even if we had more licensed physicians we would still have a large number of staff per doctor. A radiologist might be able to administer contrast to a patient, check their vital signs, transport them to the MRI machine, and run the scan but that's not a good use of a radiologist's time. Better to have nurses, orderlies, and technicians do all that so the radiologist can focus on reading the images.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#99

Post by sgent » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 2:36 PM UTC

sidewndr46 wrote: post #39

tomohawk wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, they talk about how commercial merchant marine vessels use modern coatings and materials, but that the US Navy has not approved their use after several years. Another failure. The modern materials are required since the EPA outlawed the coatings they used to use that actually worked.

I thought the military had exemptions on EPA compliance for stuff. For example: US Army tanks use depleted uranium projectiles. Those are definitely not good for the environment.

The military must follow all EPA regulations as a general order, but someone at a high enough rank in the pentagon can make an exception for a specific rule/reg.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#100

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 2:42 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #98

maxerickson wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's driven (or at least exacerbated) by the physician shortage. If it weren't profitable to have large numbers of staff per doctor, there wouldn't be large numbers of staff per doctor.

Even if we had more licensed physicians we would still have a large number of staff per doctor. A radiologist might be able to administer contrast to a patient, check their vital signs, transport them to the MRI machine, and run the scan but that's not a good use of a radiologist's time. Better to have nurses, orderlies, and technicians do all that so the radiologist can focus on reading the images.

Yes, it's obvious that some level of support staff are a good idea.

Now make an argument that the current arrangement is more optimal than the one we might end up with if there were more doctors.