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Occupy George

occupygeorge.com

91–100 of 167 posts

Re: Occupy George

#91

This is alarming to me, because this particular act is appears to be pure sensationalism to me. It also takes the numbers grossly out of context. When I saw the "Richest 400 vs Bottom 150,000,000" 50/50 split on one of the bills, my immediate thought was the following: __Do these people consider how many jobs these top 400 people created over the last decades, and how much better off the world is because they existed…

Do these people consider how many jobs these top 400 people created over the last decades

You seem to be claiming that these people actually create jobs. That they have some magical power, or even non-magical power. Some economic something. Some accumen. Whatever. You are saying jobs were created and these people are responsible. Great. If that is the case, may I ask "Why have the stopped now?"

It turns out that jobs are actually created most by small businesses.

http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html

Re: Occupy George

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read this http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870426150457620... 99% of TARP has been repaid already. That's more than you can say about regular people paying back their credit card debts due to limitless spending.

Limitless spending? Do you know anything about regular people? To suggest that the TARP banks are in any way more responsible than the average consumer is simply ignorant. 'Regular people' these days are not spending more than they used to, and they're not examples of limitless spending: http://www.yale.edu/law/leo/052005/papers/Warren.pdf Furthermore, TARP being repaid is not an inherently good thing. Who cares whet…

You can't just blame Wall Street for everything. I never suggested consumers were more responsible I just said that heaping 100% of the blame on Wall Street is ridiculous. Yes consumer debt was on the rise before the financial crisis: http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/debt/review.pdf

You say Banks, which part of the Banks? You can't lump the whole Banking system into one group and blame it all. Also the top 1% encompasses much more than these 'greed fuelled' bankers on Wall Street.

Re: Occupy George

#93

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

Inequality has hit a level that has been seen only once in the nation's history, and unemployment has reached a level that has been seen only once since the Great Depression. And, at the same time, corporate profits are at a record high.

If you're not mad you're not paying attention.

Re: Occupy George

#94

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

If you are a really good or lucky trader, you can make money in any kind of market. Some banks made up the dubious CDS from questionable house loans, making tons from selling them, and then made money again by shorting them. AIG was one of the poor fools that was left hanging the bag when the housing bubble burst. So, I wouldn't say Wall Street is the worst place to be protesting.

Re: Occupy George

#95

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

> I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first people to want an economic bounce back.

This lies near the crux of the widespread belief that wealth merely lets you buy more stuff.

Currency is the formalization of power, which is intrinsically relative: you have more power when the people near you have less.

Imagine a village of 10 people, where 9 have $20k in wealth and one has $80k. This relative difference in capital allows the wealthy person to earn more than 4x more income. This means he can easily outbid everyone else for, say, the choicest cuts of meat at the deli; the best investment opportunities; the dinner with a visiting performer; the nicest house on the block; the flattering stares of the village's prettiest dame.

Let's pretend a car costs $90k, so that it's not affordable to any one person in the village. One day, a car manufacturer contacts Mr. 80k to ask him whether he thinks his village would be a good place for a marketing stunt in which everyone was given a $90k car, which they could choose to sell if they really wanted to. Since this is a small village in a big economy, it's not as though all this extra wealth will cause serious inflation. The question is, how should Mr. 80k respond?

If Mr. 80k is a homebody only interested in absolute wealth -- having more things for him to play with on his own -- then he should go for it! He'll finally have a car!

But it might be in his interest to say "no": sure, at $170k he'll still be the richest, but now the ratio of his wealth to the wealth of his friends will have gone from 4x to 1.5x. Could this have a materially negative effect on his current standard of living and his economic security?

Well for one, while he'll be able to afford better investments, there will be more people to compete with for them. If everyone has a car then Mr. 170k will no longer be able to loan out his horse and buggy in exchange for favors and status. The previously receptive dame might start to notice Mr. 170k's bald spot, and spend more time staring at a younger prospect. When the local celebrity comes to village, Mr. 170k will have to bid higher to taken them to dinner. Mr. 170k will no longer be a crucial lynchpin of local politics, so the village alderman might no longer call on him as often. And Mr $170k will no longer be treated with the same reverence while on his evening walks as he had previously received.

So while Mr. 170k could nearly double his wealth, if the marketing promotion were to happen, Mr. 80k might perceive the decline in relative status as costing him far more.

So, no: depending on the kind of rich person you are, you might prefer for other people to stay poor. Unethical and immoral? Maybe. Rational? Certainly.

Re: Occupy George

#96

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

" Do they just hate rich people?"

Yes. More precisely, they're angry about recent economic stagnation and unemployment and are scapegoating the rich.

Economic difficulties leading to mass populist movements with a defined, minority scapegoat (especially the rich, or the bankers) is a dangerous pattern. Even in this thread you see people calling for violence. The last element--a charismatic leader--is historically all that is needed for something like this to turn very ugly, very fast.

Re: Occupy George

#97
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever it got sluggish, the sys admins eagerly added memory and processors, not bothering to consider what might be wrong. And when the box finally collapsed the sysadmins are more than happy that all the anger is directed at the hackers. This would be a reasonable analogy if the hackers (bankers) hadn't spent the last decade paying the sysadmins (congress) to remove the safeties and add vulnerabilities. Indeed you…

And of course the analogy is flawed, as analogies tend to be. Yes, what has happened essentially amounts to corruption. How do you usually approach corruption, by going after the corrupted officials or the people paying the bribes? Both, especially at this scale, but no-one expects corruption to go away while there are corruptible officials. > Certainly it appears that you haven't thought of it. It might appear so, b…

I stated explicitly that the bankers had bribed the politicians.

You responded with a statement that the bankers did not do so, and that in fact the politicians had caused the damage, and then blamed the bankers. A direct contradiction of my assertion.

You are now claiming that "of course the analogy is flawed". No sir. The analogy was effective. It was the logical conclusion that you made using the analogy that was wrong, and you now admit so.

I stand by my analogy. Our economic system has been rooted.

How to fix it? How can we do that, when the people writing the laws are the ones who would be jailed by them?

Re: Occupy George

#98
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your characterization of the pie fallacy is wrong. pg: "I can remember believing, as a child, that if a few rich people had all the money, it left less for everyone else. Many people seem to continue to believe something like this well into adulthood. This fallacy is usually there in the background when you hear someone talking about how x percent of the population have y percent of the wealth. If you plan to start a…

Ah, ok. So "Its possible to create wealth without taking wealth from others". Unfortunately, although it is possible to do so without taking it from others, taking it from others is still a viable way to do it. Further, its also possible to destroy wealth. And its possible for the destruction of wealth to be asymmetrical. So is the current financial state an example of wealth creation, wealth transfer, or wealth dest…

Thumbs up for your comment. I'd like to add on that.

Let's take a very prosperous society. Even if all people get wealthier (let's say 2x), which would mean improvement in life quality and all, and 10% of them get massively richer (let's say 20x), then we as a society still have a problem. Because it will be extremely hard for someone who is in the bottom part to get to the upper one. Because of numerous reason I could elaborate on: they will not be able to afford the same schooling, or be in the same expensive circles which creates the networking opportunities. Numerous studies show growing inequality reduces social mobility (American Dream, where are you?). Sure, a couple persons will prove that wrong, but statistics are here.

So at some point, inequality is in itself a problem, even if everyone has enough to eat and more. Because everybody should have chances at succeeding - that is, changing things, but also taking responsibilities. PG means often that being a hacker is enough and you can change a lot with that only, but I think this is not enough. CEOs, judges, bankers, politicians should come from a diverse background. And you don't get there without some equality.

And don't get me started on inheritance ;)

Re: Occupy George

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your assessment of why the protesters protest, and that they don't have a clue how to "fix" things. I disagree with your claim that this indicates anything "fundamentally broken", other than the mindset of the protesters in thinking someone else should step in and make their lives better in all the individual ways they consider their personal situations undesirable. Edit: Clearly people disagree. I'd app…

I'd venture to say that the downvotes are coming from the very broad brush with which you're painting tens of thousands of people, few of which you personally know. I'd argue that the unprecedented unemployment rate represents a clear systemic dysfunction. These aren't temporary job losses due to the natural boom-bust cycle, a very large portion of these jobs are simply never coming back. Whose fault that is is hard…

Something can't be a "systemic dysfunction" while being the sole fault of 1% of the population, either.

Re: Occupy George

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to march is better than sitting at home saying "marching sure isn't going to fix my situation."

Only if that statement is false.

The action itself (en masse) defines whether the statement is true or false, much in the way of "my vote does/doesn't count".
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